M+6 - the end?

Community General Discussion
101

And yet I have dungeon experience from a time when some of these players were still babies. Also, no - “back then” things weren’t easiler and anyone thinking otherwise can just roll on the current Classic server and see how much their Rio is actually worth.

Besides, here’s a fun thing I was thinking on… So far it appears to be perfectly fine rejecting somebody based on an addon and a website. Nobody gets mad, nobody gets defensive or aggressive about it, it’s just the way it is. But I don’t get it when people get mad when you leave in the middle of a dungeon.

See, I already made that mistake, I got into a group where I consistently had 2.5 to 3k dps, while in the same time spending a major portion of my time being the second healer of the group. A group where the Frost Mage (yeah) died 12 times during the first 5 trash mob packs. Yet I carried on with the group and we finished the dungeon in 45 minutes on M5 :slight_smile: That then came biting me back on the @ss with multiple players explicitly pointing that out as a “lol, u trash” type of way.

So, I decided to Rio myself fully and in one of the next groups I got into I was like well, I’m on 3k dps, the second best after me is on 1.3k dps and the healer laughing at my Rio just died 3 times to Gorechop’s hooks, even with me desperately trying to heal him, BoP him, Sac him and LoH him, (the ones that drop down like curtains, you know).

So I just left. Can’t afford to have another 45 min crap in my Rio. Imagine who’d invite me to that dungeon ever again, on something higher or even at M5 after seeing my profile? I got 4 /w instantly, telling me what an a-hole I am. But am I really? Cause it’s my Rio and my profile, and they can have their almighty Rio themselves just until the actual, the real Performance Reality Check kicks them in the nuts in the middle of the dugeon.

And no, I didn’t get “carried” anywhere by anyone, on any M+, cause so far I’m the top DPS getting with 1+ million damage ahead of the second best behind me. But “you” can’t know that from my Rio now, can you. So that’s why I leave groups at the first sign of epic bad players with amazing Rio scores. Not carrying them for sure and definitely not willing to pay for their play with my own data output.

Besides, Blizzrd doesn’t have any form of punishing in this regard, which means it’s a completely acceptable way of playing. Unlike let’s say a BG, where you get a 15 min deserter debuff. Am I doing it right already?

102

It is toxic for an employer to expect to see you have experience prior to applying for a job?

That’s all RIO is, it’s a form of showing your CV. If you view people demanding experience as toxic, I don’t know what to say.

Maybe the world would be wonderful if nobody asked for experience and just took eachother at their word, but this probably only works in a world where everyone actually delivers on that word, and i think we’ve all been in the position where someone says “I got this” and it turns out they most certainly haven’t go this.

And as for the ones applying who say “I have no experience, I hold up my hands!” would you apply for a top-tier job devoid of experience in the field and expect to be shortlisted for interview? The answer is probably no. So don’t pikachu.jpg when people deny you entry into their keys when you show up with nothing. It’s not toxic behaviour.

Toxic would be demanding you’ve timed all 10 keys for a +5 or something bizarre like that. This doesn’t really happen at all. Expecting someone to time 4s for a 6 is more than reasonable.

103

My question is - is it toxic for the employer to fire you after finding out that your CV and your actual performance are nothing alike?

104

There’s a test period for most new hires, so it’s perfectly reasonable to do so. But that’s not really a good analogy, pugging is more like a 0 hour contract I think.

105

Nope. If the CV makes X claim and it is visible from the employee’s work they cannot do X they have lied on what was taken as an official document and most employers can easily dismiss you for that.

Notwithstanding this is exactly what probation is about. You need to fufill the obligations of your contract “satisfactory” to meet probation, and such a contract would probably say “fill out the requirements of the listed job spec” and that spec probably refers directly or indirectly to the skills being asked for, which you claimed you had, and have been shown to be unable to do. Therefore you violated the terms of your probationary period which means not only is it not toxic to fire you, it’s perfectly sensible.

106

So why is eveyone getting so mad when you leave in the middle of the dungeon?

107

Sure. But my timed +20 Nelths Lair in legion is really not going to help me on a +5 in Shadowlands dungeons.

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108

Depends on the group.

Most groups when listed have a basic overarching purpose which is “Do this dungeon in time”.

If somebody quits without warning, they violate the premise of that agreement. It’s cause for rage.
If somebody is leaving because it’s clear the key won’t be timed, there may be rage, maybe not, because either way the purpose won’t be achieved which means that people feel their leaving won’t cause the dungeon to “fail” because it will already “fail” if that makes sense.

Mileage varies on the last one tho. Some people consider it rude to leave a dungeon even if it won’t be timed, others have no problem with this whatsoever. PUGland is the land of no consequence which means i’d wager you’re more likely to run into those from the second group than the first, because people there owe you nothing.

109

Even in the middle of the day there are 30+ dps in front of you wanting to join. In peak hours/weekend evenings that number probably rises to 100. Biggest reason you can’t get in. Not that many people play tanks and healers compared to dps specs. If you want a slightly better chance at getting in I recommend playing Marksmanship hunter lol.

110

The problem is TANKING. There are so few of them compared to the vast amount of dpsers. I think blizz should buff their dps for starters.

111

Yeah, we cleared that around comment #50 or whatever - there are a lot of skilled meta players having higher priority than all the bad, unskilled non-meta players

112

The experience is key here. I don’t think many here will disagree with me, but let’s say i’m starting a +10 plaguefall group. If I have a Mm Hunter (hoooooly meta batman) with experience in +2s applying and a Frost mage (lol garbo) with 12s all timed applying, people will pick the frost mage, because we know they have done it before and done it well, so clearly they can’t be terrible.
The Hunter offers nothing but the promise of potentially good DPS. The frost mage shows the evidence of prior success. People will go with the evidence. So yes whilst the meta does matter, I think experience actually beats it out. It just becomes an issue of comorbidity because between equal experiences, ppl will pick the meta, which means the meta ends up with more experience over time.

But i’d argue the priority is actually:

  1. Experience in this order
  • People with experience SLIGHTLY OVER the dungeon
  • People with experience AT the dungeon
  • People with experience CLOSE TO the dungeon
  • People with experience WELL ABOVE the dungeon
  • People with experience WELL BELOW the dungeon.

The bottom two may be grounds to ignore the applicant, if one of the top three is satisfied (top taking priority), then move onto point two:

  1. Classes and Comp
  • People who play a class that has utility/buffs/CC/Cov you want for the group
  • People who play a class that is “meta”
  • People who don’t fit into the above.

it may well be that point three here is grounds for dismissal. That hunter with 1000 RIO may be experienced, but the fact is they’re venthyr and survival and you need a Kyrian, so they can’t take the spot for example.

  1. Gear
  • People with gear WELL ABOVE the requirements
  • People with gear ABOVE
  • People AT GEAR
  • People BELOW GEAR
  • People WELL BELOW GEAR

I’d argue 5 is immediate dismissal, 4 can be stomached if they pass the top 2 for the first two criteria (ie they have lots of experience and play a desirable class/cov) but this is alrgely judged upon satisfaction of the other two. So if i’ve taken a guy with middling experience, and plays a class that doesn’t really offer anything too special (they’re the group’s “non-essential” slot) then I will probably target them if they have really good gear because their job will largely be DPS, which means their gear should back up their performance.

None of this is foolproof but I can imagine for a lot of people who do keys, thisis kinda how the application for PUG DPS looks in their heads. It’s certainly how I did it in my head when making groups as a tank. It wasn’t always about meta, it depends on who was already in my group. If I had a couple of DPS whom cover all the CC I think we’ll need, the last spot could easily go to a non-meta spec with good ilevel and decent experience because all I need is DPS.

113

There is nothing toxic about a flat scoring system that has no emotion. It is a pure reflection of the dungeons the person has done.

I equally could have gone to their armory and said EXACTLY the same thing but the armory is not a convenient thing visible in game. Most use raider io for that.

I am astounded how toxic some people are about raider io.

5 Likes
114

Yeah it actually seems, judging based on forums, that a lot of people don’t even realise that the only thing raider IO really does is open up your armory, check what dungeons you’ve done, and then assigns a rating to them since there’s no M+ achievements in the same way there’s arena rating and mythic raid achievements

1 Like
115

It does not matter how long you have been playing the game, that does not give you experience of a specific set of dungeons. In low keys most don’t care too much about score or ilvl but if you are applying to groups and the leader has a choice between you and someone who has more gear or more experience they are probably going to choose them.

People need to stop taking it so personally if they aren’t taken to a key they apply to. When it’s your key you are free to take the first person who applies or leave it a minute or two and take your pick from all the applicants.

If you play with friends or guildies you can totally ignore pugs, you just do a keys as and when you want to. I also suggested the community where people are friendly and don’t care about score etc.

The armory does the same thing, except people would have to look you up individually as you applied to a group. The addon simply translates that into a score and shows the specific experience an applicant has for the dungeon they are applying to.

116

All it does is make the data available displayed more conveniently. That’s it. Oh yeah, it also adds a descriptive number to that data in order to make it more easy to view at a glance to view averages.

If people complain about people using this, it is akin to complaining about people using filters when searching their own e-mails or forum posts. In each case people could theoretically take a while longer to sift through the data, or they could use a tool (RIO/Filter) to help them make decisions more quickly.

But the judgement that stems from it isn’t made from anything that isn’t available in game. The RIO number is derrived from keys done, it’s not randomly assigned. If people complain about the practice of choosing people based on experience I defer back to my prior posts about whether they think it’s wrong for employers to employ people based upon their skill and experience as opposed to just hiring the first guy who turns up and says “yeah I can do it trust me bro”.

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117

I honestly see it no different to those runs for Hc Denathrius where they want you to have curve already because they want a group that is competent enough to kill it.

There will always be some that have over the top requirements and you can just ignore those. But some just want to time a key as easily as possible and others are happy to take whoever.

I would still recommend guildies/friends/communities over pugs.

118

I wouldn’t think much into that. I switched to rsham this expansion because my beloved MW are absolutely dead and I am just tired of trying to fight the current.
This is my first shaman in my life after playing multiple other classes, and I still manage to outperform most other shamans I meet, some of them playing shamans for years now, just spamming their chain heals. I don’t do mythic raids though, and I’m below m+15, so grain of salt is required.

I would say, don’t think that fresh fotm character is any different from your average player. They can play good or bad with a pretty normal distribution.

119

Well knowledge comes through experience and some people tend to take things faster than others.

Depends how you define bad and good. An average player with basic knowledge and experience in retail endgame content can and should be able to carry his/her own weight in whatever content.

But when one is not a world first raider or a r1 3k rated player there is always something to learn and something that can be done to improve.

Playing a spec over time and not dumping it whenever the meta dumps it will give you the extra edge when it comes to the spec.

Had a subrogue guildie who was right up there with the meta in m+ through all of the expansion, tho this one was an far above average player who had mained sub since forever. This was in bfa when sub rogue was supposed to be one of the worst specs, and no one ever wanted a subrogue in a group.

I recognize the fotm-rerollers from the people who have been maining the same meta specs, especially in pvp.

They (not all of them) tend to do stuff that normally isnt to smart, but its just working in some comps at different ratings. For example a pally bubbling + wings against a enemy team with no ability to dispell the bubble.

Up to a certain point those things work, due to meta and tuning, not skill.

120

Myself, I’m more astounded at the fact that for 90% of Rio whiners, their only complaint is that it is ‘third party’. If we had the same exact score, calculated the same exact way, but implemented within the game and not via external source, they would all be ay-okay with it, it seems.

It’s like Gearscore really. It’s universally reviled and there are still scores of people that, at the smallest provocation, will go on a rant how it was tge single worst thing connected to the game ever… But they’re ay-okay with Item Level metrics, the same exact thing, only implemented by Blizzard and objectively inferior (since it does not take into account sockets, enchants, tertiaries or even different stat budgets for different item slots).