The game is already hard enough with knowing mechanics. Really. The puzzle is how to deal with bigger pulls, coordinating interrupts/cc/etc, dealing with cooldown/resource managment, positioning (LOS for example), playing your char.
When mechanics are not clear it is just a frustating experience.
Because it is there. No one told them they can’t do it.
Everyone in this game chases loot in one way or another. If they play M+ they get shiny purples, no effort needed. Some other player can carry me. Lol.
They pay their sub, they are entitled to everything.
They are clear to me now. But they were not clear the 1st week of the season. 1st week I did not know what was going on… people dying left and right… And I did not read a single guide whatsoever. So I yoloed all the dungeons, all the packs.
Fortunatelly, nobody was doing +20s routes with 50 mobs. Everyone was going pack by pack and looking at what is going on was enough to learn that.
The puzzle the 1st month was to figure that out. And the puzzle now is as you say. To make bigger pulls.
And this is the new player experience. Is that a good one?
And apparently you are able to learn and see what is actually happeneing. I have no idea how you do that, but i take it. But overall when first impressions are bad and frustrating, people do not play. Especially when the game just leaves you with no info about what is going on.
There are here tons of people complaining about other people who are making mechanic-mistakes. Where do you think that is coming from? People have no idea they make mechanic mistakes because the game is not clear.
And then we get the problem of people running through heroics with no challange, and then instant have to play a +10 because blizzard removed +2-9.
PvP is also there, yet most people preffer to play PvE. Should we demand that 2nd P be replaced with an E because the people that don’t like it weren’t told specifically that they shouldn’t do it?
Alright, but do we really need to make adjustments because players play a mode they are not really interested in other than to get shinies?
I mean, people are also interested in Mythic track items. Should we make Mythic raid a walk-in-the-park because people want that gear? I don’t think so…
M+ is for a specific audience. And it feels like some here aim to change M+ to broaden the audience, but that doesn’t make the game any more fun for more. It can lead to the exact opposite.
PVP isn’t the same though. Look at it from a gameplay perspective.
If a player is weak in PVP they get focused. While they can be carried they personally will just get melted and not even get to play the game.
In PVE they can derp around without a care and other people do the “stuff” while they hit stuff and have a rootin tootin good time hehe.
yes we do, but not to accommodate.
We need personal skill based barriers to entry. Like proving grounds.
You can’t be bothered to learn/try to a certain level? Then i’m sorry this isn’t for you.
Not really. You can get melted in PvE as well. The difference is that we have 2 types of encounters in PvE, trash and bosses. If you die to trash you can just release, get back, die again and repeat. The other type is boss encounters which don’t let you get back up unless someone uses a CR on you. Depends on the content you do ofc (M+ being more yrash focused and Raids being more Boss focused), but there isn’t that big of difference when it comes to being bad and dying non stop.
I don’t think m+ was ever meant to be pugged - it was meant for guilds to do, like mythic raid.
Back in the day (apparently) there was no group finder and people had to organise groups and I think the spirit of this content harks back to those days.
These days it’s a lobby simulator and people want to pug things which is probably where this solo queue obsession comes from.
I guess when it was just guilds doing these things, people knew each others skillsets and abilities and had more consistency, cause it was the same people every time.
These days people just wanna jump in, do the content and leave
like what? One shot mechanics in low keys are super rare. It’s usually falling off stuff or w/e. Not one shot? “healers problem hehe”
who cares if you die if you still get to “win” the content and hit stuff in between. The “super serious neckbeards” can just carry me hehe. You’ve seen LFR, they literally treat it like that. Low M+ is the same.
So homogenise everything, reduce the design space, and making it easier.
Yeah, this is exactly what everyone thinks will happen and is exactly why they don’t want Blizzard to do it.
At least you know it will happen, so that’s refreshing. Most people don’t think that far ahead. But you also want it to happen, and we just disagree here. Hard.
From my point of view World of Warcraft needs to exploit its genre more. Use the world, use our presence as characters with “physical” attributes such as gear, power, class, specialisations, etc and let our minds find one another through them. That’s what MMO’s are all about, and if you do this you’ll find some truly great people and very loyal friends as you navigate through it.
I should know. I did it.
For me, LFD makes WoW much worse. The group finding tool not so much, that’s more like a jobs board listing. But yeah, LFD/LFR coincided with retail losing subscribers, and the pattern repeated perfectly in classic even though the systems came out earlier.
Depends on gear. I have seen a lot of people die on low keys by getting focused by several mobs and not using deffensives, particularly in Priory when the the 2 shouts go out.
Doesn’t this apply to PvP as well? I mean you can die instanly and you teammates could still 2v3/1v2 it?
Because I dont do mega pulls of 50 mobs early on in the season for a +5… 
I go pull by pull. Pack by pack. 2 or 3 mobs at a time. The only difference is how long you take to figure all that out. Some people only need to see it ONCE cause mobs, in the end, always do the same thing. Swirlies, frontals, casts… its just a different iteratoin of the same 5 mechanics. <— veteran players go here.
Others need a couple of +5s pack by pack to figure it out. And that is the “new player experience”. And its fine. <— new players go here.
And everyone in between. Because each time you complete a dungeon, you add to your “XP” bag that experience. Its not like veteran players were born with a wow account you know…
Also: New players have bigger challanges than M+. For me, its incredible that a new player sticks arround the absolutely horrible, attorcious experience from level 1 to level 70.
Or because they refuse to pay attention and are at a level they should not be in. And for the record, its perfectly fine if a player just wants to log in to ZugZug and relax. And blizzard allows that, and gives people content to do that.
What is not OK is for those same people that want a ZugZug experience, to whine about not being able to do it on higher keys when its not possible anymore.
Like me. I get tired of high keys too eventually. I log into my warrior and I do +2 or +5 to do preciselly that: ZugZug and not think about anything. But you will never see me bricking people’s 10s because I want to ZugZug.
We will see about this. We cant continue to have the same discourse we had in DF because its not the same situation.
I think blizzard realized already their mistake in S1. That the squish did not work. So they did the obvious: Nerf M+.
By how much? That is what I dont know.
Basically. In S1, an “old +12” was a new “+2”. And that was ~ true. Today? After the nerfs? How much would an old “+10” be in M+ today? I dont know. I do know that its less than before.
What I do know is that high keys became harder. That’s for sure. By virtue of simply having the -15s death timer, and an exponentially higher % difficulty increase per key level. Plus all the hidden changes like the spell quew and kick changes in TWW.
So I can confortably say that a +18 today, is harder than a +28 in DF. But that dosent mean that a +8 today is as hard as a +18 in DF.
You tell me. What do you think?
That currently already exists, no? Just unofficially. And these unofficial requirements are one of the primary reasons we get ideas like these matchmaking things…
So instead of unofficial requirements, we get official requirements. I mean, sure, but what does that help in this situation?
A +8 now is deffinetely easier than a +18 in DF. You don’t get both Tyrra and Fort until +10, so its only one or the other and the only other affix is the kiss curse. In DF a +18 had either Tyrra or Fort on top of 2 other curse affixes. There is the qiestion of are TWW dungeons baseline harder or easier than baseline DF dungeons, which I cannot tell tbh, but affix wise a +8 is easier for sure.
yeah but still rare, group can clear and just get them back up. Oh well “it happens” 
.
yeah but you don’t get to play at all. Just die instantly and watch. In low M+ they aren’t dead 95% of the time, hyperbole aside
rio doesnt dictate skill, you can just be carried. A personal skill test, like instanced content designed to be hard would actually show if you’re playing properly or just riding coat tails
I remember those proving grounds in Legion (I think it was Legion?). It didn’t say much either…just that you could stay awake through 75 waves of mobs.
you say that and yet it was “so hard” to complete silver (lul) it had to be removed as a requirement for HCs…do you remember?
I think i read you are doing 13s? Obviously you fell asleep during it…it was a joke. You would meme through it like we all did…but that’s the point. The bad players can’t even manage that and would be filtered (for their own good and ours)
We are doing that too. We are really doing the same thing too.
Ok, i should not play mythic dungeons. That is a fair point.
You also have a step up of 7% per key level now, it used to be 10 I think.
This whole deduct 10 levels as a quick comparison is bad at the moment. Like you said, an old 18 is in no way comparable to an 8 now. An 8 is far far easier.