Matchmaking is the only real fix for the M+ problem

But that’s a matter of perspective at the end of the day.

I – as a player – was never in favor of Classic WoW. Dumb idea. Focus on the game we are actually playing instead of branching out.
But if I had been part of the Executive Leadership Team at Blizzard and had seen the market research outlining the potential audience for Classic WoW, I would have green-lighted that project immediately.

So it’s a matter of perspective.

And I think in broader terms you and I vibe quite a bit on our desires for WoW to embrace more of its MMORPG roots, so to speak.
But acknowledging that WoW is a business, and that it is still Blizzard’s main business for years to come, it will inevitably get treated as such.
And if there was a business argument for doubling down on classic MMORPG design, then I’d be thrilled. It just doesn’t seem like that’s the lay of the land, so to speak.

Blizzard has to be thinking 5-7 years ahead in terms of the design direction for the game, and that direction seems to point toward something that’s more Seasonal, opt-in, broadly accessible, structured gameplay, with strong activation points, and approachable gameplay.

Blizzard don’t seem to want to ride WoW out into the sunset as a hallmark of the MMORPG genre. They’re trying to modernize this behemoth into being more of a relevant choice of gaming for a general audience.
And that does make sense from a business perspective. Something has to keep the lights on at Blizzard HQ, even in 7 years.

In that regard, if you look at the competition, you can see that Blizzard are playing catch-up.
It’s a pretty prevalent consumer behavior in gaming these days that everyone moves around. We don’t stick with a single game like many of us likely did with WoW 20 years ago. We play it for a while, then we play something else that has a new Season, then something else, then something else, and if Blizzard has been cooking up something sweet, then we come back to WoW to check it out. But if they haven’t, then we don’t.

And Blizzard’s Seasonal design is just not as strong as that of other games. I mean, it shows. Blizzard’s potential customer base is huge. They should be able to activate a lot more people throughout an expansion than they actually do. The fact that they tout high retention is evidence that they don’t manage to tap into a broader customer base.

And if you’re the poor souls working on WoW who are tasked with figuring out why gamers don’t come to check out a new WoW Season like they’ll check out a new Season in Fortnite, Call of Duty, League of Legends, Path of Exile, Diablo IV, or whatever, then Mythic+ with its archaic Looking for Group system design and its absurd progression curve is an obvious aspect of the game to point at. If your outlook is 5-7 years, you’re going to have to do something there. You can’t just pretend that status quo is going to do anything good for the game direction Blizzard have charted for WoW. It’s not.

And if you’re going to make changes to accommodate a long-term game direction of leaning more into a broadly-appealing Seasonal gameplay design, you’re definitely going to look into the possibility of automated queue systems. Especially for Mythic+ if that’s supposed to be a highlight of your content offering. And it likely is.

And yet you are doing +13 and +14. I dont know where you are now. And I have no idea why you are not doing +15s with your group. But it can be caused by a ton of reasons. Not neceserelly because you dont know what mobs do.

Sometimes, its something as simple as reaction time. And no book or guide can help you with that. Only practice. And maybe a bit of luck.

And for the record, you know what my opinion is about the key level people do. There is no elitism here. We all fight our own battles, figure out our own puzzles at our own difficulties. We are all in the same boat.

No. You are doing +13s/+14s. And you have always under-estimated your own skill as a player. And you are not a “new player”, or anywhere near that defenition.

Simply because you dont get to +13s with out knowing that “fireball VOLLEY” probably needs to be kicked. And a big red swirly on the ground is bad for your health.

You are exactly where you are supposed to be. Frustrated because you have to perfect certain things in dungeons that are causing wipes. Its something we all have to do, at whatever level above a +10.

And whatever mechanics you think are unclear now… 2 or 3 key levels you will find out that X or Y mechanic now also needs perfection. Something that you did not consider previously.

Oh yeah I completely forgot they changed that as well.

The difference of classic wow is that all the content is aimed at the average joe and there is only one difficulty. Also, the only endgame in classic wow is raiding with a 40 people-so having class-required mechanics there like warlocks banishing elementals in molten core is different than in LFG retail M+

Because i studied external sources for hours upon hours upon hours.

I wont deny that you did.

But you have to stop denying like that is the only possible method to learn M+. Or that its necessary for every player to read a 10 page essay on Icy-Veins before even logging in to do a 2+.

Its just your way of doing things. Which is fair. We all have our own way.

It’s an interesting problem because on the one hand the change to retail alienated a lot of players, and it would probably have been smart to have never done it, but now you have a new playerbase. Do you want to risk it twice?

Probably not.

Classic was an interesting solution, but probably not the one I’d have gone for, either. But in order to figure out what went wrong, you have to understand the core of WoW, and the design team at the time just didn’t. At all. And the community reacted with “We don’t trust you. No changes.”

Their hands were tied.

World of Warcraft as an MMORPG was extremely good business and I have no reason to think it wouldn’t be. Just look at what’s happening to Classic as it’s entering into 4.0 and 5.0. It’s not going well!

Why is that? Well it’s because of the changes they made going into late WotLK and Cataclysm. It damaged the size of the old playerbase and it’s damaging this one just as well, for the same reasons.

All these “but it’s a business” arguments would hold a lot more water if vanilla had been the niche game and retail was the world-wide sensation. But it’s the other way around.

I do, but I don’t think it was primarily because it was so hard. It was just annoying to need to do that every time you log on a new char to gear up (afaik it wasn’t account-bound?).

Just started 13s, yes. All 12s done at least (almost on 2 chars). But yeah, I guess this is one of the primary issues of M+; who is it for exactly, and perhaps more specifically…what levels are for who…and what rewards should match what difficulty?

I don’t mind whatever they do to the lower keys myself, as I barely go there anyways. But…it’d be a shame if changes to the lower keys drip upwards to the higher keys. As there will always be a barrier of difficulty for them, because the ‘best’ obtainable gear from M+ will never be super easy (for those). And no matter what barrier…people will complain once they reach it.

Apparently people cannot accept their limit anymore, they need to be able to get the best of the best…

It’s funny, because the more you praise the system for how inaccessible and hard it is, the more Blizzard is gonna think they made a mistake, so no point in really arguing further for me :joy:

I think you have to stop denying it is the only method for me.

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You are right. And I will. :slight_smile: I take verything back, and sorry for making it seem like I wanted to impose something I should not.

Maybe a compromise. Bosses have the adventurer guide. Maybe expand that to some key, really important mobs too? :slight_smile:

PS: But for me, you are still an OP skilled player. Nothing you say or do can change this PoV I have of you.

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Lots of people aren’t even testing their limit. They are not trying at all, doing zero m+ and demanding it be made easier.

In my experience people who do try are usually very bad at giving up.

I think of Classic WoW as Blizzard approaching WoW more as an umbrella where there can be a selection of game offerings beneath.

It’s like Fortnite. Fortnite is a brand umbrella that has a myriad of offerings underneath it. Battle Royale. LEGO Fortnite. Rocket Racing. Save the World. Creative. Team Rumble. And so on.
The idea is of course that if you have Fortnite installed, then you have so many game offerings within Fortnite that you don’t really need to play anything else except Fortnite.

Blizzard wants the same for WoW.
You got Retail WoW. Classic WoW. MoP Classic. Season of Discovery. Plunderstorm. Legion Remix. And so on.
Again the idea is that if you got WoW installed and you’re into WoW, then Blizzard has so many offerings available for you that you don’t need to consider playing anything else than WoW.

They all want players to commit to their little fenced-off business. Which makes sense. Just about every Live Service game does this in an effort to keep players within the fold. After all, they’re competing for players’ time. And so long as you’re hanging out under Blizzard’s umbrella of WoW offerings – and it doesn’t matter if it’s Retail or Classic – you’re investing your time with them and not EPIC’s Fortnite or Riot’s League of Legends.

Yeah but it’s hard to put a finger on when the game goes from good ol’ MMORPG design to being less so. Because that’s incredibly vague. I mean, the queue system for Dungeons was introduced back in WotLK, which is 17 years ago. That was arguably a step in a direction of wanting to keep the game modern and relevant to the times. Again, 17 years ago.
So in many ways Blizzard are just continuing that effort, which I think they’ve always been emphasizing. Keep the game modern and relevant. No design seems holy in that regard.
It just seems to me that the market competition forces them to be more bold with design changes now than back when they were the undisputed kings of the game industry. They don’t get to rest on their laurels anymore. Blizzard really has to fight a lot harder for every paying customer they have these days. And that’s good, even if the game direction is perhaps not entirely to the liking of you and I.
I mean, in this business, the popular design is always going to be favorable to the less popular design. So vis á vis Looking for Group design versus automated queue design, it feels all but inevitable to me, even if it’s not particularly MMORPG-ish by nature.

How is talking about a 2+ anywhere near talking about a +14? And how is talking about +14s have anything to do with accessibility?

So you want a more accessible feature for casuals that you can q right?

Why does that need to be m+ tho?
Why not heroic dungeons?

Right now they serve no purpose so that could be formed into the content you and other look for without touching other content.

Wouldn’t that be better?
Or does it need to be m+ so the casuals can claim they also do m+? Or is it about the loot?

Because most players play too well for heroic dungeons and want gear/player progression too

Gear and player progression should not be reserved for Uda and you

If you’re a player who doesn’t want to try, you’re still gonna die in the easiest of content lol.

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That’s why I said form it into the for casuals challenging content you look for.

That ofcourse includes gear progression just not to the levels m+ gives.

And for you too just like op. Don’t try to dismiss me by saying I’m an elite guy. I don’t do m+

M+ is essentially just scaling dungeons like Pits in Diablo 4. It’s a core pillar of wow, that should be open to play for everyone

nah they fail the mechanics there too, it just doesn’t matter and it should.

because everyone is entitled to everything and everyone should be able to pug +20s with one button rotations and 100% success rate /s

they also need “the best of the best” brought down to their level. Need to be the best with 0 effort

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