Matchmaking is the only real fix for the M+ problem

[Lilíith-draenor]

@Gloober-aszune

Which we have been over tons of times. Not enough tanks and healers. If people switch to either role they won’t spend time waiting.

I am almost 3k, which is the end point of “rewards” for over 99% of players.

You never say specifically what level you play. I’ve had no issues getting into groups on 2 tanks.

And as someone with 6 tank alts - i personaly have plenty of issue when i try to get into +10 on alts which have 660 + itlv 2k score even if i do literaly 1 run per week on them

[Gloober-aszune]

Because the “majority of players” aren’t willing to do what needs to be done. WoW mirrors IRL. Lots of people like to complain and take no action.

@Lilíith-draenor

And as someone with 6 tank alts - i personaly have plenty of issue when i try to get into +10 on alts which have 660 + itlv 2k score even if i do literaly 1 run per week on them

Come on. Did you think I forgot your BDK who has half the dungeons missing? And the trying to get into +7 you’ve never done? That was 2 days ago.

[Ellipsìs-tarren-mill]

@Dehraward-kazzak

his main. 11s/12s . Since he doesn’t want to just tell you.

Punknosheep ‹pUnks nOt deAd› @ Stormscale (EU)

Pretty sure it’s this actually.

All his characters have roughly similar naming conventions and they’re all in the same guild, he can’t exactly blame anyone for connecting the dots. Also he considers this doxxing so he’s probably going to block you like he did me.

[Siene-arathor]

Seems odd to me to post on a public forum, where by definition you’re gonna get differing opinions (which is what the definition of a forum is lol) and then lash out at people who have a differing opinion.

I suppose the best method is to be rude to that person as you don’t have a constructive response I guess?

[Zenoutlaw-stormscale]

@Dehraward-kazzak

his main. 11s/12s . Since he doesn’t want to just tell you.

I’m starting to think this may be a “i got kicked for being a holy priest instead of disc” thing lol.

Smug low blows because you have nothing to argue. That’s not my main.

[Uda-uldum]

@Zenoutlaw-stormscale

Smug low blows because you have nothing to argue. That’s not my main.

Show us your main then.

[Zenoutlaw-stormscale]

Maybe stop worrying about what I play and start focusing on what’s wrong with the LFG.

[Gloober-aszune]

I’m not going to do either of those things. I’ve been worrying about what you play for ages.

[Ishayo-tarren-mill]

@Jito-turalyon

I’ll forgive Blizzard’s designers that much, because they are effectively navigating the game’s development in blind. After all, who’d have guessed 20 years ago that we’d still be playing WoW today? And can anyone guess if we’ll still be playing 20 years from now? And what does the game design of today need to be if you have to account for how the game looks in 20 years from now? That’s a tall design order, even for Blizzard.

I will blame them for it. Can I forgive it? Sure, but I still blame them for it, because they should have known.

Why? Because the vanilla team told them straight to their face not to do this, and then they did it anyway and bullied several vanilla devs out of Blizzard.

Unforgivable? Probably not. Really, really stupid and with no excuses? Definitely.

@Jito-turalyon

Okay. Almost no design seems holy.

Not at large, but when you’re focusing on a particular game, then yeah some design is holy.

If someone were to go into Heroes of Might and Magic 3 and remove heroes and town screens I’d hunt them down and shoot nerf guns at them until they BEG FOR MERCY!!

That’s part of the challenge of live service games. You have to understand the concept and the design pillars not just when you develop it, but also forever onward.

For WoW, the holy cows are these 4 things - and I know I’ve beaten it to death but I go agane:

1. Great combat
2. Discovery of the world and awe
3. Personal identity and community
4. Constant stream of content

If you make stuff that messes with any of those 4 you better PRECISELY map out why and how your change won’t cause any sort of trouble, and when you add a new system you have to sit down and carefully consider how it fits into all those 4 pillars. If just one of them becomes a victim of your new system, you messed up.

Example of messing up: Garrisons.

1. The combat consisted of sending followers and optimizing that with an addon.
2. Discovery is great
3. This should have been a strength, but it wasn’t. There just weren’t enough options to personalize, and we only had 1 garrison for each faction as well - and it isolated us from each other by instancing us all into our own living spaces and providing everything we would ever need in it.
4. Not only did we only ever get one garrison, it also ate a raid tier.

Example of not messing up: Delves.

1. Combat is a core focus and it’s regular old WoW gameplay with small twists and turns. The NPC shores up your weaknesses and the difficulty spans all reasonable levels for what it is.
2. They feel like a core part of the world and they are interesting to explore, especially the first time. Their randomized scenario objectives only make them better
3. This is probably their biggest weakness, but sometimes we just need to unplug. Putting people in an instance for 20 minutes is not going to damage the social cohesion, and besides you can get some friends alongside you.
4. There are many, and more keep being added. If Blizzard wants some sort of mini-dungeon, like Jaedanaar in vanilla, this is that thing and there really is no limit to the amount of times it can be great.

@Jito-turalyon

But I remember the Q&As Blizzard had years ago with Ion where he effectively changed his response with regards to borrowed powers, where the design was inferred by many of Blizzard’s design principles that have so much history behind them that you don’t question them.

I remember seeing that, and honestly it annoyed me because if they’d spent FIVE SECONDS talking to any of the vanilla designers they’d have known that WoW was designed specifically to not have that. That’s why it has so many quests and why max level only has repeatable, but never daily, quests. The closest you get to a daily/weekly in vanilla is raid lockouts, and that was considered an unfortunate compromise.

It just proved to me that they have no idea what the legacy of their game is.

@Broduin-silvermoon

Why did all the classes become bloated in Dragonflight? Because Blizzard thought, that if it’s fun for the esports crowd for Echo and Liquid, the game would have many viewers on twitch, and get many young players. That never happened. Class bloat only hurt the game, it didn’t add a single positive. PvP is on the decline due to class design bloat, and PvE is less accessible.

It turns out that competitive aspect thrives the most in games, if the average joe is having fun and understands the game, not if the competitive players have as much skill expression as possible.

None of that. I actually know, I saw it happen in real time and I had a friend on the WoW team at the time who told me. Last one, they’ve all left now.

They converted the talents into the new trees and made sure you’d get roughly the same things, and all was well in the world, and then their new community council kept giving them feedback that the talents were too expensive and they wanted to have more.

So they made all the talents cost half as much, people got twice as many talents, and now the amount of options were reduced back down to what it was before, if not lower, and everyone has 3 trillion talents.

Then a bunch of them complained about “boring” talents, i.e. talents that you can’t interact with that just increases the damage for some spell or whatever. These talents are essential in this sort of system, but they got the feedback and they acted for the most part.

So now we have A LOT of talents that should be tracked but, since nobody really ever could, just a lot of chaos. Especially visual chaos.

This one’s on the community council and on Blizzard for listening.

They still doesn’t really understand the mistake they made here.

I pray that they will someday.

[Dehraward-kazzak]

Ahh fair enough, well 13s. Same difference really.

Holy priest/BDK are both not good. Or rather, the community sees them as not good due to the meta.

BDK is literally the last tank anyone would take.

[Zenoutlaw-stormscale]

Then you can soff off as far as I’m concerned. You’re not contributing to the topic, you’re just here to trash talk and waste time. If you’ve got nothing to add to the discussion maybe it’s best you stop spamming nonsense and just bow out.

You’re making this a lot more about you than it ever needed to be. That’s on you.

[Ellipsìs-tarren-mill]

@Lilíith-draenor

i personaly have plenty of issue when i try to get into +10 on alts which have 660 + itlv 2k score

Because you should. 2k score is nothing, you’re missing tonnes of dungeons at that level.

Put in the effort everyone else did and stop expecting people to lower their standards to meet you.

It’s not like the system you’re asking for would let an untested 2k io tank into a +10 anyway. Stop skipping steps.

[Gloober-aszune]

@Zenoutlaw-stormscale

You’re not contributing to the topic, you’re just here to trash talk and waste time. If you’ve got nothing to add to the discussion maybe it’s best you stop spamming nonsense and just bow out.

Did you reply to me by mistake? All that stuff is the stuff you’ve been doing.

[Uda-uldum]

@Lilíith-draenor

And as someone with 6 tank alts - i personaly have plenty of issue when i try to get into +10 on alts which have 660 + itlv 2k score even if i do literaly 1 run per week on them

Because 660 ilvl is someone that AFKs in a delve. And 2k score this late in the season is someone that hasent even tried at all.

I would not invite a tank like that. Especially knowning that by waiting 5 more minutes I get a 2.8k tank, with 670 ilvl. More appropriate level for a +10.

Not to mention people that got 3k and are now just doing weekly 10s. I would get that one any time of the day.

Basically. Because you spread out your game time over 8 toons. You have been left behind. You got toons that are in the very bottom of the 0.1% of players (not the top) that quew to a +10.

So you get rejected.

How about this: Try to get your 9s done. One by one. Boost your rio to 2800, more appropriate. And DONE.

And FYI: Do this early in the season. Its ininitely easier.

And if you dont know this by now, you dont deserve to play M+. Cause your not even trying to be honest.

[Dehraward-kazzak]

We’ve seen your main. The 3k BDK.

You’re playing the least popular tank and i never gave a low blow.

Besides saying you play unpopular specs people probably don’t want to invite.

[Zenoutlaw-stormscale]

You just exposed yourself as the smug gatekeeper you are. Exactly what I’ve been saying from the start. Smug jabs, no real argument, just gatekeeping worship like you’re some kind of authority on who deserves to play.

That’s not how this works. People should be able to play what they enjoy without being treated like they’re somehow “less than” because of your narrow little ego. You’re a part of the problem, not the solution.

[Gloober-aszune]

My VDH is 664 2.6k and I get instant invites to +10.

I just sign up to a group with a lower score leader. I do get into blaster groups that already have a healer though.

[Uda-uldum]

@Zenoutlaw-stormscale

Maybe stop worrying about what I play and start focusing on what’s wrong with the LFG.

Not enough tanks/healers. DONE.

Also:

@Zenoutlaw-stormscale

It’s cool, but don’t act like you’ve got the full picture just because your friends told you some watered down version of wows history. wow has a decades long history.

Instead of parroting what someone else says, maybe take a deeper dive into the games history. Your friends might not even understand the full story, they’re just giving you their own limited perspective. Don’t base your whole opinion off second hand info.

@Siene-arathor

And please don’t be patronising and rude to me.

@Zenoutlaw-stormscale

How am I being patronizing? I’m not trying to be rude, just pointing stuff out.

So when YOU point out the credentials of people its OK. But when we ask you for yours its not?

HYPOCRITE.

[Dehraward-kazzak]

@Zenoutlaw-stormscale

That’s not how this works. People should be able to play what they enjoy without being treated like they’re somehow “less than” because of your narrow little ego.

That is EXACTLY how it works. What you mean is, you don’t like that it works that way. You have higher rio than me this season, how can i take “smug jabs” .

You’re just acting entitled for no reason.

People really care about meta in this game. Play what you like, but don’t act like you should be able to force others to suffer because you want to play a bad spec.

[Ellipsìs-tarren-mill]

@Gloober-aszune

My VDH is 664 2.6k and I get instant invites to +10.

Damn I wonder what the difference is between your experience in +10s as a tank and liliths. Could it be the 600 extra rating you have from doing dungeons at a more appropriate level for your experience at the time which ultimately made you a more trustworthy prospective tank for random stranger’s keys?