I’ll believe there’s a context to what he said, because on its own the quote is nonsensical. In product development you always have a target audience and it’s never “everyone”.
I’ll offer Blizzard founder Allen Adham’s words on the same. They’re perhaps a bit more relevant in the context of WoW given that he spearheaded the development of the game:
Doesn’t surprise me that he says this, when Wow until and with Legion was always made for its broad audience.
I feel like Dragonflight was made for esports orgs and content creators. TWW feels like a realization “Oh, we shouldn’t have done that in Dragonflight”, but they still seem to not be sure what they want, and it’s mostly still like Dragonflight with Delves added as an opt-out . That’s why we get Legion Remix now as this wild experiment to test the waters.
I just had a tank that was 3k that pulled everything in first pull in a mechagon +10.
“I do this pull all the time”.
Then he did it again and we wiped again.
I wouldn’t have invited him myself, I joined the group as a healer. I could see it coming before the key even started that we’d wipe on the first pull due to the tank. I even told my friend “watch when he pulls all” and he did.
He speaks to that around 10:00 in the video, about Blizzard’s ability to attract both the casual and the hardcore players, and ultimately graduate the casual players into becoming hardcore themselves.
I spoke to that earlier in the thread as well I think, calling it the doughnut model where the outer layer is the casual audience and the center is the hardcore.
That’s Blizzard in a nutshell. They want that easy to learn, difficult to master game design that attracts a huge casual audience whilst at the same time maintaining and fostering a growing hardcore playerbase. And they’re historically successful with that.
I think in the context of this discussion and WoW as a whole, what they struggle with now is continuing to attract a casual audience for WoW and turning them hardcore. The game doesn’t really have that easy entrance and smooth process to the point where you find yourself having become a hardcore player. The game definitely has the whole hardcore endgame set up – it’s there. There’s plenty of neckbeard and sweatlord content in WoW for hardcore no-life nerds to plow through. The game just doesn’t have a very good process for getting players into that space.
And I think that’s also why Holly Longdale speaks to that being the focus for the WoW team going forward, to really improve the experience for new and returning players.
Because Blizzard wants to turn them hardcore so they subscribe for life. That’s the whole endgame for Blizzard. But that stupid Looking for Group system ain’t doing them any favors to that end I would say. And I suspect that’s why Holly Longdale also mentioned that as something getting changes.
So we’ll see.
The context is “why are some champions only viable in high elo even though the majority of the playerbase resides in low elo?”.
TLDR: High(er) elo players should test their skill in mastering complex champions and feel the enjoyment. While the majority of the playerbase are casuals, you develop a game for every skill level.
It doesnt matter how you feel. Only facts matter and facts prove you wrong. Simple as that.
The thing is, that being “hardcore” in earlier iterations of wow was not the same since BFA/Shadowlands, so if he talks about hardcore players, he might mean hardcore from the p.o.v. of a normal person
That’s a silly head.
I just did Workshop +13 as Guardian and what I do all the time is split the first pull. It went great in the +13.
I didn’t even pull everything in my own resli +12. I’m silly but I’m not that silly. I wouldn’t even do it in +2.
I’m only 2976 score tho. Maybe the 3k knows more than me.
But you do realize that people doing +10s are not the “elitist swetloards” you continue to claim they are.
Cause nerfing the game so more MYTHIC raid guilds manage to kill Gallywax (among other things) is also catering to the “masses”.
The elitist e-sport people are 0.1% (literally) of the M+ population, which is like 2000 people. And 100 guilds in the hall of fame, with are 2500 people. Everyone else, is as casual as you are.
So I dont get where these “gatekeepers, e-sport elitists” are coming from. And I dont understand where you get that Blizzard is catering to the “top 0.1%” because it’s not true.
They cater to EVERYONE. Which includes Mythic raiders and key pushers. Not just ultra casuals that do 1 +5 key a week like you.
Ah okay. That makes sense. And that’s essentially the same as Blizzard. Easy to learn, difficult to master.
It’s people that play with something akin to a “team” that underestimate a 10 because they do the pull with coordinated voice communication. A 10 is easy for them so it’s fine to pull like that, it’s only a 10.
This guy wouldn’t get to the rating he’s at through pugging when he plays like that in a pug.
Almost every time a tank like that gets invited to a key I’m in, it turns out to be a disaster because they’re pulling like as if we’re on voice comms to coordinate cc and interrupts.
First. Dont compare PvP to PvE. Uda had already argued it to ad nauseum so wont repeat myself.
Second. Claiming that it “wont affect LFG” is factually wrong cause m+ is challenging content not your average LFR or heroic dungeons. Something which people seem to fail to grasp it seems. Even premade groups CAN fall apart so you can take a guess about the success rate of a soloQ.
And if soloQ becomes a failure…which it will. Blizzard will be under enormous pressure to “fix it”. The whinefest will make your recent Blizzard scandals nothing more than a small toilet whisper. And what happened in previous times when something challenging was queable? Whinefest - > Nerfing it to the ground. Happened multiple times already.
So if you want to argue against, at least try to come up with something better than “It happened always in the past but I am sure it wont happen this time!” argument.
Third. Once Blizzard caves in and nerfs m+ to the ground, it becomes nothing more than a hero dungeon queue… er “Hero+” dungeons? And M+ essentially gets deleted as a viable end-game mode. Unless you will try to convince me that Blizz will leave it at heroic dungeon difficulty but keep the myth rewards…
So in conclusion. All these problems, headaches and a potential to destroy m+ altogether…for what? So that Blizzard can piggy back and spoonfeed little Timmy who stubbornly refuses to say “Hi!” to somebody in an MMO?
There are a lot of over-geared players playing 10s for crests/vault. Maybe that tank reached 3k by being lucky with big pumpers burning everything fast.
It’s all about dps burning targets plus some aoe stun here and there.
I don’t know why people would go for a solo cheese system - only a certain amount of time would you get the cheese you wanted, so there will likely be more cheese thrown away.
It’s much better as it is when you can set up a cheese group and select the best ones you want
I didn’t compare PvE to PvP. I compared games to games. WoW has a myriad of PvE and PvP activities, so has StarCraft II and Overwatch 2 and Fortnite and all those other games.
But sure, Deep Rock Galactic, Helldivers 2, etc.
Games are games, and plenty of games with multiplayer gameplay have queue systems, be it for PvE or PvP activities – WoW included.
And on that basis there seems to be little reason – to me – for suggesting that a looming disaster awaits if a queue system was to be introduced to Mythic+ in WoW.
All these games with all these game modes having all these queue systems that all work just fine, but this one, this one mode in WoW can absolutely not handle having a queue system. It’s like the kryptonite of Mythic+.
Right…
And I don’t read Uda’s posts. He can pound sand from now and until Christmas. And he knows why.
I don’t think I have said that it won’t affect LFG. And if I have said that, then I haven’t meant it in the context you’re suggesting. But I think I have mostly tried to say that LFG is not going away as an option. And that’s also what I say in the post you quote, so I’m not sure why you say I’ve claimed otherwise (elsewhere? I dunno).
Anyway, sure. If we look at Arena when Blizzard introduced Solo Shuffle, then the immediate effect was that the Arena LFG lost a lot of popularity, because most of the Arena players gravitated toward Solo Shuffle.
And I’d expect the same if a queue system was added to Mythic+. Players would gravitate toward it in overwhelming numbers leaving LFG for the chosen few. The same happened when Blizzard introduced queuing for Dungeons in WotLK.
And I think that is fine. It’s a choice and if players gravitate toward one option over the other, then that’s just reflective of one option being seen as preferable to the other.
It’s not a bad thing if one system cannibalizes another because it’s better. It’s a bad thing if a better system isn’t introduced in order to preserve the bad one. That way your product quality starts to stagnate.
I definitely think that the need to have a good working system design from the start – because the backlash will be immense if it’s poorly designed – will mean that Blizzard will take a long time to develop it internally. They’ll be iterating and iterating and iterating and exploring every option forever before they’ll announce anything, let alone release something. And if they can’t come up with something they’re super confident in, then they’re not releasing anything. And I’m sure they’re in that process already and have been for quite a while.
But I also think that holds true for many of Blizzard’s design features. They’re a super iterative company that goes through a lot of internal development before they have much of anything to show for it. But it tends to work for them, so I generally trust their process. Also on this matter.
I think Blizzard have already tried to frame Mythic+ difficulty as everything above +10 as being for the serious crowd and where it gets really challenging and it’s about pushing yourself and putting your skills to the test. And then everything up to and including the +10 key is really just intended for the broader audience as the Seasonal journey and the weekly Vault fix with the cheery on top being the Seasonal rewards.
I think that’s the same as the framing for raiding. Heroic and Ahead of the Curve is for the masses. Cutting Edge and World First and Hall of Fame and all that is where the serious challenge lies.
If I were to frame a goal, it would be to reduce barriers to entry and provide a clear path to individual progression.
I would then pose the following to you: What is it Mythic+ tries to preserve by not having a queue system?
Queued pve content = 100% success rate.
Unless Blizzard puts in “barriers” i.e. mandatory ilvl, score, enchants, sockets, consumables, BL, CR, Dispells, no triple range / melee and no class stacking, people will demand that Blizzard fixes “insert problem”.
A matchmaking / queued m+ system is not as free as people believe it is.
Edit: in hindsight…the players will demand it anyway. The success rate will plummet and players will whine. As usual.
You’re cursed because you are S tier PUG tank and healer. I only play tank. The only PUG tank I’ve ever seen is myself.
I’ve seen tons of 0 IQ plays by the tank but they were 0 IQ plays I chose.
I just did a ToP +13 where the healer was allergic to staying alive during last boss.
It’s difficulty relative to the ilvl it provides and frequency it provides it, and in turn its place in the ilvl progression of PvE content at large.
Queued content has to be made easier, if not through design limitations then by the demands of the audience queued content attracts.
In my view its the first mistake because every system is applied to a game mode for a reason. Arguing that a queue system is some versatile “works everywhere” system is the same as trying to convince that if a “boat can float on water then I am sure it can sail as submarine as well. Water is water right?”.
Works fine in a PvP environment. Give one example where a queue system is a success in an end-game PVE(I repeat challenging end-game, not your levelling and casual roulette and stuff). Same analogy before. You praise the boat as being the best floating vessel ever…but it still doesnt make it a good submarine…
Again. PvP and PvE is vastly too different.
Maybe some lone wolf dps who refuse to socialize…but no tank or healer will even consider a rando group which they have no control over - they can get 3 meles in a mele un friendly dungeon for example and they are stuck to deal with it…unless they take the “leave penalty” and they get insta invites in the LFG scene anyway. So how would you convince tank and healers join this soloq “adventure”? Blizzard will need to give HUGE rewards to bribe them but if that happens. Then its no longer a free choice. ITs the same as 2 pizzerias offering the same pizza, only 1 offers it at 2 euro and the other at 25 euro. “Hey bruh, its just a choice!”
A hard disagree. How many percentage do people even bother to step foot in normal let alone HC? Your average Joe can just do LFR → kill the big baddie, see the end of the story or chapter and wait till next patch. Upper difficulties hold no real value to your average Joe, since the bosses is the same, the story is the same. So what would be reason for your average Joe to do higher difficulty stuff? Get the “same item but with a different number at ilevel section”? Even FFXIV savage raids(which is equivalent to heroic raids in WoW), are done maybe by 2% of the playerbase. normal raids(LFR) - 8-51%.
We can argue numbers and sources all you want but, LFR is the so called “difficulty for the masses”, everything above it is pretty much “high end difficulty”.
It being an end-game pillar and remaining it so.
Not your average “LFR or heroic dungeons”. The moment Blizzard opens the floodgates. The difficulty will have to be adjusted severely so that even a “guy who is always drunk and plays with his butt, can clear it” or risk a huge whiplash whining. And before you start screaming “but it works in PvP!”. Again PvP and PvE are vastly different. For starters. In PvP, you are set against other players and even if you play like a 
then eventually you will reach the level where you are getting set up against other same . PvE does not work that. The encounter is pre-set and scripted. Either you interrupt that “omgez, this spell will kill you in 20 sec if you dont interrupt it” or you don’t. Either you stand in 
…or you dont. So Blizz have to script the PvE encounters to a level that it gets… most through. And in queable LFR/LFD scene, the skill levels of those… is very very low.
So make a soloQ for M+? Expect Blizzard to reduce the difficulty severely cause the monkeys who dont even know their 1-2-3 rotation…wont even start regarding more “advanced” topics such as “interrupting” are coming and if they cant kill the boss while farting in their general direction…they will rampage through the social media demanding Blizzard to “omgez fix this hardcore tunning!”.
If there’s one thing I think will be all but guaranteed, then it’s the success rate.
Because right now Blizzard aren’t in control over the groups. The players are. So it’s the players who are running all kinds of weird group compositions resulting in whatever random success rates they end up with. Blizzard just has to sit on the sideline and watch the mayhem unfold.
But if there’s a queue system, then Blizzard gets to decide the groups, and they’ll know what the success rates of the groups ends up being. And that’s statistical data you can balance classes and dungeons around, and form groups on. Then it becomes incredibly easy to tweak both class balance and dungeon design to provide fairly even success rates – however high or low you want them to be.
Because Blizzard are in control of the groups they put into the Dungeons, and they’re in control of the balance of each of the classes in those groups, and they’re in control of the design of the dungeons the group that they have composed is running with the classes that they have balanced, they’re ultimately a lot more in control over the success and failure of groups of players going through their little game experience.
I’d want that control if I were them.