We are talking DF seasons right? If so I cannot understand how people were bad at it. Like in Legion (and BfA) it was a meme how easy Havoc DH was, trust me Legion Havoc was like brain surgery compared to Aug.
In DF S2 a monkey could get title smashing keys with an Aug.
S3 and TWW S1 were a problem. Cause those monkeys were still there. So anyone below title range was stuck with them. Especially because they still expected to reach high performance smashing keys at random… and then were surprised when keys were bricked.
I don’t try to discredit you. But you really are clueless on this matter (and this is not a jab, its ok you don’t do the content), but you keep pretending that you know what is going on. Let me repeat again, we have seen what queues do to these types of content, no queue system has ever worked for challenging PvE content ( and by that I mean it has either been a complete clown show or the content itself has been nerfed into oblivion).
You have not tried to reach a +10 (and again not trying to shame you, you do you), you have no idea what is even going on in those groups and what requirements there are. I am very sorry if you are taking this as a personal attack, but how do you expect anyone to take you seriously on this when you cannot even guess at what level M+ starts at, not to mention that whole “0-10 is pretty much the same dungeon mechanically”. In that very same range 1 person can absolutely destroy your key, because affixes rotate weekly, if you get a healer who has done the dungeons on week 1 when it is just kill the mob before it casts but you are on week 3 and the heal absorb affix hit while the healer (and whoever can cleanse) has no clue what to do on the affix, what do you do?
In this thread, no. Other threads most definitely and not just me.
That said, this is not me discrediting you, I cannot do that anymore than you are doing it yourself.
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I just wanted to point out that affixes are in the current 1-10 bracket in case you werent aware. I think +4 brings the first one, then +7 the next and +10 the third and +12 the last change of affixes. Im more inclined to thinking a queue system could work up to +6, Im not so sure after that. But then again, Im not against it as long as it doesnt include heavy nerfs and incentives.
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+3 or 4 because Blizzard removed the death penalty and depletion for those ranges. And gee I wonder why they did that.
I forgot they did that, been some weeks since i did those levels.
It didn’t. What? We only have M0 and M10. We don’t have anything in between
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Another fun fact. People who have KSM are 51%. Which granted is the majority this time, but will Blizzard be happy with barely 50% of players getting KSM in soloQ?
New HC is the old M0 and new M0 is the old +10, but you are right we don’t have +2-9 anymore.
What I would like is just to stay on the topic and just have a discussion on the topic itself. That should be possible without brining up the name of the poster or how intelligent they are or what one’s feelings toward them is.
Just ignore who writes a post and respond to the arguments, the reasoning, and the logic put forth. If it’s terrible, then explain why.
Going after the person is a low blow in any discussion. And you do that, time and time again.
Please don’t.
I am kind of begging, because you are also a regular poster here, and so getting these jabs every once in a while becomes a bit taxing after a point. So just don’t? Please?
I would much rather have a conversation where I say something that is nonsensical, and then you point out why the thing I said is nonsensical, instead of taking the opportunity to use that as fuel for saying that I am clueless or stupid or a laughing stock. Just stick to saying that my post is nonsensical, not that I am as a person.
It would make for a lot nicer discussion to partake in. I mean, you and I both come here to have a nice time talking about WoW, so why should I end my day on the forum with the memory of being called clueless and ridiculed for the thoughts I’ve expressed?
Think about it, please.
I don’t see the need to change any of that. A queue system is just a queue system. It doesn’t come with strings attached, at least not if you ask me.
I think thats mostly what people fear though. Cause people will whine and complain if they queue and the content is too hard to get through. Asking for Blizz to nerf it. Thats mostly why people are sceptic to a queue for it.
I think that’s probably true. The discussion certainly feels reminiscent of many I’ve had on the Arena forum where proposed design changes would see players being skeptical, mostly because they didn’t trust Blizzard to make things better – only to make them worse.
I think over time the audience for any game mode becomes increasingly conservative about changes to it.
Blizzard can easily make changes to Delves, because few players have very strong attachment toward Delves (as of now). The same can’t be said for raids or dungeons or arenas that many players have years and years of investment into. They become skeptical of change and protective of what they like. Which is probably normal, but still…
Ok sure. It’s terrible because it will lead to nerfs. I by no means think I am a good player. however by raiting cutoffs I am considered to be in the top 10% (ok close enough I am just under it with 8 points, which is less than a timed dungeon). My point with this is that, the majority of WoW players are not great at this game (and again I am not trying to be rude to anyone), and that is when they can pick and choose who they play with, meaning overgeared meta picks whatever. Now you want to put those same players in the hands of a roulete wheel and expecting better results because they will be matched with players from their same skill level?
And again to put this into perspective. KSM is barely above half of the player base, +10s is barely 1/3 of the player base. So why would this lead to nerfs? Would Blizzard be happy with a system that they created resulted in a 50% success rate for something as easy as KSM? Right now it gets excused because you as a player have complete control over your group, if your group fails then its on you, you could have not invited that fire mage and instead taken a spries or vise versa. With the solo queue Blizzard do not have that excuse and are to blame for your runs failing, because its their system that put into that position in the fist place.
So TLDR WoW players are too bad to be put at the mercy of roulette wheel.
If Blizzard want to get more people into M+, they should revert the key squish because apparently a +12(old) is too high for some people to start at. Also M+ doesn’t need saving, it is by far the most successful end game feature to date. And if they don’t want to do that, they should focus on creating other alternatives like delves.
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I think they could expand on the delves more and have more difficulties that could also warrant maybe getting myth track pieces in vault. Right now delves feel too easy to get myth track from. But thats also hard to balance due to it being flex size…
Do people struggle in heroic dungeons? I dont think so, but few years back people would say that it is a really bad idea
They should… if they put a bit more money into delves, it is extremely low effort design wise atm.
It was a really bad idea. It is because HC dungeons got butchered into oblivion in Cata, because “Too hard Blizzard”, now we got M+. But do you know why Blizzard had to nerf said HC dungeons?
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I think that’s a reasonable analysis and a possible outcome.
I’m not sure if I agree that it’s a bad outcome, but it’s probably in the eye of the beholder.
I mean, the difficulty of Mythic+ goes as high as you can go, so what does it matter if Blizzard nerfs the difficulty of keys that you consider easy in the first place?
I could understand the concern if Blizzard’s goal was to nerf all difficulty to the ground so that you wouldn’t be able to find an adequate challenge in Mythic+. But given the forever-scaling nature of Mythic+, I don’t see how that can happen.
I also don’t see how it’s a good thing that in the current environment the success for lots of players depends on their ability to get boosted or carried by others? And if this is the environment Blizzard balances around, isn’t that pretty fake? I mean, wouldn’t it be more ideal if Blizzard balanced around what players were actually capable of doing in groups with similarly-capable players?
Or is it better that the balance is skewed toward the pros saving everyone’s day and offering a helping hand whenever needed so people can get their rewards?
I also don’t think a queue system would be so crazy and random as is perhaps imagined.
Between requiring a minimum item level for each dungeon difficulty, and also requiring that a dungeon difficulty is successfully completed before being able to queue for the next, I would say that the group-making would be pretty consistent with regards to the challenge of a dungeon difficulty and the capabilities of the people who can queue for it.
And if anything, that is the perfect environment for Blizzard to balance around. There is very little disruption from boosters and carries in such a system.
Can Blizzard do other things to improve Mythic+ Dungeons than going down the route of a queue system? Sure. I’m just not one to speak to that, because it’s not where my armchair designer conviction lies. But I do feel it’s worth iterating that in the blog post that Holly Longdale wrote a month or so ago, she did allude to Looking For Group seeing some changes in 2025. What those changes may be, I don’t know, but hopefully they’ll go toward improving the group-making process in some ways.
Makes sense. I throw key levels around with out clarifying the context.
DF key levels:
1:10 (LFG) —> 11:20 (LFG) . Vault was at a +20.
Lets call these: LEVEL 1 —> LEVEL 2
TWW S1 key levels:
1:10 (Matchmaking, TODAY called normal/Heroic/M0) —> 11:20 (LFG, TODAY called 1:10). Vault is still +20 (TODAY called +10).
Lets call these: LEVEL 1 —> LEVEL 2
What happened in DF?
You had players in Level 1. You had players in Level 2. Players in Level 1 complained about LFG. Same arguments as today. But stayed in Level 1 and did not try to do +20s.
What happened in TWW S1?
Everyone that was in LEVEL 1… Jumped into LEVEL 2 and expected to do a +10 and claim the reward (something they did not do before). But NOBODY used the Matchmaking. Now it was even harder than in DF. So people complained even harder still. And of course… after depleting every single +2 they did… eventually quit playing. Just like I did.
What happened in TWW S2?
Blizzard nerfed the dungeons so hard, that they practically reverted the changes I mentioned above. And that is what it took to save M+.
So. If in DF vault was at a +20. In TWW S1 vault was at a +10. And the difficulty was equivalent. TODAY in S2 thanks to the nerfs, the equivalent vault difficulty would be a DF +15.
So. What are you proposing? To transform 1:10 into Matchmaking. And keep the Now 11:20.
If you notice… its literally the same process as the one described above.
People in LEVEL 1, that would not jump into LEVEL 2 for the myth track vault… would Jump into LEVEL 2 and demand vault. If you do the same process, everyone that is currently in LEVEL 2 would jump into LEVEL 3, demand those rewards. And complain that its too hard and that you need an Matchmaking system. Repeating the cycle once again.
And funny thing is that… this cycle described above is the THIRD time it happened. It happened with Normal dungeons (Heroic LFG). Then with Heroic dungeons (M+ LFG). Then the squish with M+ in DF, creating M++ in TWW…
Well there are several reasons why that isn’t good. First M+ does not exist in a vacuum, it exists along side delves, raids and PvP as endgame activities. So When you nerf the
+2-10 range and the rewards remain the same, guess which players start complaining?
The other issue is that sure decreasing how much dmg X ability is a nerf, the more effective nerf is to just remove that ability all together, which is happening. We already went over this in this thread, but we do have fewer affixes this expansion. When the key level squish was introduced, Blizzard did say that the dungeons would remain relatively similar in difficulty (just numerically they would be -10), however a +8 is no where near as difficult as an old +18, because a +8 now has fewer affixes. To put this into perspective DF S1, a +20 had 2 rotating affixes, either Tyra of Fort and a seasonal Affix, DF S2 removed the seasonal affix so only 3. TWW S1 has only 1 rotating affix that buffs you if you do it, either Tyra or Fort until +10 (at +10 you have both) and a death penalty affix that removes 15s of the timer instead of 5, on +12s the buff affix got replaced with more % stat to mobs. So now in S2 we have the rotating buff affix, Tyra and/or Fort (depending on key level), but the death penalty affix got moved to +12 and the bonus % stat one just got deleted, Sorry I know how this could seem confusing, but you can see that Blizzard are already removing mechanics, sure they are replacing them with more scaling but there is pathern here. A pathern that will eventually lead to mobs just auto attacking you for huge chunks of your HP while your only counter play being attacking them.
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And I throw key levels around because my brain is stuck in past designs because I rarely play Mythic+ since I hate the LFG system so much it hurts.
But it’s nice that it’s not just me who struggles with the context of one’s posts, even if I perhaps struggle quite a lot with it. Hmm.
Assuming I understand what I just read…yes? But I don’t think I do, so I’ll explain my number scenario and you can cross-check it with yours.
+1, +2, +3, +4, +5, +6, +7, +8, +9, +10 ← Old keys. Bring them back.
These are timed, and you still get affixes on +2, +5, and +10. So new affix design. Maybe spread them out? I don’t know. Minor detail.
You can queue for all of these.
Each one requires an increasing item level to queue, and each one requires completing the previous one to queue. And there’s a small token fee to enter a Mythic Dungeon through the queue system.
+11 and on ← Still old keys. Still want them back.
You can’t queue for these. Make a premade group.
Maybe add the old “Season affix” or something to these. I liked the design approach of a “step up” in difficulty from the keys below.
0
Doesn’t exist. It’s dumb to start counting from 0.
Rewards stay as they are. Vault requirements, seasonal items, drops, same same.
Makes sense?
So in short: I don’t like the squish Blizzard did. It’s unsquished in my proposal.
The squish makes sense in the current LFG-driven environment, because you want to consolidate players around fewer difficulties so they’re more likely to play with each other (and invite each other!).
But that almost becomes a non-issue in an environment operated by a queue system. It is far better equipped to juggle many balls than the player-driven LFG system is.
I think that’s my proposal in a nutshell. Not perfect. Not bulletproof. And not without flaws. But the armchair designer in me thinks it’s better than what Blizzard currently has on the table.
Yes, and that’s a huge can of worms on its own. And I’m a little hesitant to go too much into it, because I am already posting more on this matter than I would like, but I’m in favor of just re-adjusting the rewards across activities if need be. I think Blizzard did that anyway in TWW, so they can do it again in Midnight or whenever.
I don’t really see it as a problem, it’s just more work for Blizzard.
But I can see why some would think it’s annoying to change the reward structure of the game again and again and again. And that would be reasonable and fair annoyance.
Yes, and that’s also a can of worms that I think goes beyond the merits of a queue system on its own. I think that’s scratching more at what Blizzard’s game direction is and how they may apply that throughout the game.
Because if they would do that for Mythic+, they would do it for the rest of the game. And that’s a bigger discussion than just queue system or not, I think. That’s more in the realm of what should WoW look like in 5-7-10 years? I kind of err on the side of Blizzard’s product, Blizzard’s decision. I see value in criticizing their design, but I feel pretty resigned to them choosing the direction (because it’s going to be very business-driven).