Matchmaking is the only real fix for the M+ problem

Community General Discussion
3834

You don’t see it as a problem because you do not participate in the content. Right now there is a huge discussion regarding cartel chips. Specifically why do Mythic raiders get more chances at Myth track item, while M+ players just get 1 per week. Now I will not go into the specifics of it because everyone will have a different level to suggest for Myth track. But objectively M+ does offer gear frequently than a raid, but on the other hand M+ is only limited to HC gear. The other issue is Getting Myth track from the vault is way easier from M+ than from raid.

If we are going to be talking about “fixing” M+, we should first talk about fixing loot distribution, unsquishing the key levels, Affixes - specifically what the hell are we doing with them do we want them or not, class desisgn - specifically class/spec utility (why can a warrior survive a 15M hit while a BDK can’t), incorporating addons into the game ( stuff like plater, OmniCD etrc should be baseline features not addons). Also why don’t people list their keys?

3835

Oh, I mean I don’t see it as a design problem that Blizzard would have to re-adjust the reward structure for the game. I just see that as more work for them.

Phew! That’s a lot.

Can’t we just go back to me saying that Blizzard should add a queue system and put in a few parameters to somewhat sort the grouping out and leave all the tough questions for Blizzard to figure out?

Joke aside, but I do feel to some degree that Blizzard also have a responsibility here. Communication would be really nice, but that aside, as players we should ultimately just tell them what we want, and then it’s their job to figure out how to address our feedback with all the design problems that may pose for them.
That’s their job, because that’s what they’re paid to do. It’s not really something I (or others) should have to do for them in order to put forth our feedback.

And I also think it sometimes results in whiplash, like the Dinar discussions. Players gave a lot of feedback, but when Blizzard didn’t really heed the feedback to the players’ wishes, then it feels like betrayal.
For that reason it’s perhaps best sometimes to limit one’s feedback to a few subjects and not a lot, so you don’t get hit by too much “betrayal” from Blizzard. Hence why I’m not too much a fan of opening cans of worms. You can easily end up in a downward spiral where you’re in disagreement with Blizzard on everything and hate all that they do.

3836

XD Thats so… innocent.

We have been telling them what we want across multiple platforms. This is something really small but I am using it as an example anyway. Do you know for how long warlock players have asked for an independent interrupt that isn’t tied to a pet? We almost had it as well in DF PTR, but instead blizzard decided to not do it and instead just change Demo’s felguard stun into a somewhat interrupt (if the mob is immune to stun it interrupts, if the mob isn’t immune it stuns).

But ok something more serious, pretty much every tier/season we have raiders complaining that they have to do M+ so they can raid and M+ people complaining that they need to do Raids in order to push. This happens absolutely each and every season. And Blizzards response to this was* “well we don’t see it as a problem because we view Raiding and M+ as one type of content which is PvE”.

*There is no official source for this statement, but I think it was Dratnos who asked them off script and that was their response. I will try to find the video where he mentions this happening.

The real issue with the Dinars is that 1 content offers better items. Stuff like Best-in-slots, Mr Pick-me-up etc are just OP while over at M+ land we have what? Pacemaker and maybe Singet as really good trinkets while the others are… questionable. The dinars were supposed to be a band aid fix which backfired.

3837

OK. So let me get this straight.

We get normal and heroic difficulty dungeons. We scrap those.

We replace that with key levels 1 to 10. And what we have now (the current M+ key levels we have right now), we simply add to that new list, which would turn into 11-20. Effectively undoing what was done in DF.

Agreed.

But then, a +10 today would be a +20 with your suggestion. If that is fine with you. Then sure. We can do it as you want. Why not.

Because under your suggestion, normal and heroic (which are Machmaking) would go from having just 2 levels to 10. And you would call them differently.

So sure. I am not gonna argue about what you call things. :smiley:

3838

Well Normal dungeons are for leveling.
Heroic dungeons I haven’t understood the purpose of for a long time. And they’re perhaps a whole other discussion. I don’t really care if they should be salvaged or not. But even as of today with Blizzard’s current design, Heroic dungeons feel pretty pointless.

In terms of the design structure, yes.

In terms of difficulty, I’d want them to lean toward the easier of the Seasons Blizzard have done, like DF Season 3. Blizzard’s tuning is better when it errs on the side of being forgiving than unforgiving.

But that’s a lot of vagueness, and Blizzard won’t do as I say, so it doesn’t really matter. But a +20 is different depending on the Season, and if you ask, my preference will always be toward the easiest. And I’ll also favor having more key levels than few, because small incremental steps in difficulty make for a smoother progression path.

3839

You know that in PvP there’s Wintrade, the best teams will play together.
The funny thing is that the majority of players will be stacked at a certain level because they simply won’t have the skill.

3840

i really enojoy multiple mobile games from time to time thank you - they are really fun to play for first +/- 20 hours :slight_smile:

3841

Yup 100%. The 2 biggest pain points in TWw S1 were +2s and +12s. +2s because if you had only done normal mythics before that (M0) and you were not overgeared you that Tyranical or Fortified just hit you like train (depending on dungeon), because suddenly stuff was not falling over. Blizzards solution to this was removing all affixes from +2s and +3s, removing the 5s death penalty and making +3 undepleatable.
The problem with +12s was that 1st you lost the stat buff affix and second adding another %dmg+Hp affix to the whole dungeon on top of the passive scaling per key level and Tyra+Fort. The solution was again removing the %dmg+hp and reducing the passive scalling and redistributing it across the higher levels.

We will probably see more iterations in S3 and S1 of Midnight.

3842

Find a game boy emulator. I can promise you that those old games will more than 20h of fun.

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3843

Normal dungeons (the max level ones) used to be LFG. And they used to be the “pre-raid” gear source. But people whined. They gave them LFG Normal Dungeons.

But then they became to hard, and the pre-raid gear too difficult to aquire. So they nerfed them. So much, that they had to “invent” a new tier above Normal Dungeons (LFG) to justify having that “pre-raid” gear.

And M+ was born because they did the same exact thing with Heroic Dungeons. Make them matchmaking. They were too hard. They invented a tier above it, called Mythic dungeons.

No. Lets have it right here because its relevant to the discussion at hand.

As a reminder, read this:

Normal and Heroic dungeons ARE the old 1-10 I am talking about. That’s what they became.

And now you might understand my skepticism with any suggestion of turning 1-10 key levels into matchmaking. Cause that is what they did in DF already.

I have pointed out the effects of doing this in previous expansions. AND you have seen with your own eyes what happens if you do (S1 TWW) to the rest of the players, and those that are supposed to use matchmaking, but don’t end up using it in the end.

DF S3 vault key was a +20. And you got what you wanted. If we were in DF S3 right NOW, at this moment… vault would be a +15 (from DF S3). Not a +20 (from DF S3). Because of the nerfs they did this season. PLUS kiss affixes…

This season is one of THE most, if not THE easiest seasons ever done. In particular, for key levels <12. Above a 12 its a different discussion.

You do realize that whatever preference you want to take, it will still remain FAR from Matchmaking difficulty levels.

Let me remind you that a Delve 8 is as hard as a +6 key by reward structure alone. Delve 11s were cleared the first HOUR of S2’s launch, along with +7, +8 and +9 keys. How much easier do you really want it to be?

I mean… I am also in favour of easier seasons. You will never catch me saying that S1 was a good idea.

But there is a limit. If they reduce the difficulty of gear acquisition, they might as well just mail it by post… cause it would be pointless to even farm anything like that.

3844

I disagree.

That’s opinion versus opinion of course, but my conviction leads me to believe that a queue system that puts people together for a given dungeon difficulty based on everyone having a desired item level and everyone having proven experience up to that difficulty is just as good a process for putting a group together as your typical group leader in LFG is.

I don’t really believe that the group-making process of LFG is so far and above the quality of an automated queue system that players will not be able to be successful without it.

And if the quality of the group-making in LFG is indeed demonstrably way higher than that of the automated queue system, then it would be because the LFG process is skewed in favor of players inviting over-geared applicants to their groups and basically getting carried.

And if that is indeed the case, then Blizzard would have all the reason to apply some heavy nerfs to the Dungeon difficulties so that they would more accurately reflect what a group with appropriate item level and experience is actually capable of – and not what a group with over-geared player(s) is capable of.

At the end of the day, the Dungeon difficulty balance should reflect what a group that’s appropriate for the content is capable of, and not what over-geared characters are capable of carrying others through.

(and with that said I think I’m going to back out of this thread, as I’m nearing the 100 posts, and that’s got to be enough)

3845

People timed +10 keys in the first week of s2. I’m not talking about Yoda or Kira, normal players timed those keys. This season is maybe even easier than Dragonflight s3. How much easier needs it to be?

3846

Again, that’s in the realm of vagueness, because you’re asking in the context of a queue system that only exists inside my head, so the hypothetical scenario of people playing in that environment and the difficulty and challenge it would pose is an unknown.

You may as well ask me what the ideal choice of clothing is for having a picnic in unicorn land during hopsy month.

But vaguely and hypothetically speaking, I think that a queue system would put together a consistent quality of groups across dungeons and difficulties. That’s kind of what a program can do.
So that outcome would give Blizzard a very strong data set for seeing whether groups overperform or underperform relative to Blizzard’s targets for the dungeon difficulties, because they are in control of the group-making. It ceases to be an unknown variable. And if they’re unhappy with any of it, then they can make adjustments as they please.

3847

Then they should probably buff them if that’s the goal.

People were pugging 10s week 1 with gear from the previous patch.

3848

Lets agree to disagree.

I am not making any of what I said up. Blizzard was quoted saying WHY they made heroic dungeons. And WHY they made Mythic dungeons. And I already gave you the most recent M+ squish that literally did what you are asking, and it explains WHY they did it, and most importantly, to WHO it was intended.

Its literally a copy paste of your proposal written in blue. And the result of that is S1 TWW.

I am sorry. Its not an opinion. Its an observation.

And for the record. I respect you. So if you want to keep arguing about a SoloQ sure. Give other reasons if you want to. But your idea of transforming 1-10 key levels into matchmaking… did… not… work… (yes, I wrote that in past tense intentionally). Its in the blue post I quoted.

And most importantly:

You are forgetting the real problem here. Nobody would care how you form the group. If people did not have to wait for ages to get into a group. <— THIS is the real problem here.

The cause of this problem is lack of healers and tanks. ANY SoloQ solution you propose must, by definition increase the number of healers and tanks. It has to. Otherwise, you solve nothing with a SoloQ.

And this system, has to be more beneficial to healers and tanks than what we have now in LFG. Otherwise, there is no incentive for them to participate in SoloQ. No healers or tanks in soloQ → Longer quews.

Currently, we get instant invites, and we get to pick our favorite most gigachad DDs to carry us farther than we would otherwise with our own skill (aka: better success rate for healers and tanks).

If this SoloQ system reduces the success rate for healers and tanks, they will not play it. And if the incentive is to wait for longer than 30s, or join a group of people that are not Gigachads then there is even less incentive.

I am still waiting for someone in this forum to solve that issue right there: Why would I (healer) play in a system that is less beneficial to me than LFG?

3849

Depends on what your target is.

My point being that with LFG someone can make a group of 4 Priests and a Druid and say the Dungeon is too hard. Should Blizzard react to that? It’s a bad group composition, but it’s bad because Blizzard’s class balance isn’t even across the board, let alone class synergies.

And when a group is made of 5 overpowered specs, whatever they may be, and they blast through the same Dungeon? That’s also a bad group composition, but for the opposite reason, and Blizzard usually swings the nerf hammer for that.

And then someone makes the same group with 4 Priests and a Druid, but one of them is crazy over-geared for the keystone they’re doing, so they blast through the Dungeon with ease. What’s balance in that context?!

A mess. LFG gives players total freedom to form groups across the entire spectrum of item level, experience, classes, specs, whatever.
Blizzard have absolutely no control over that. What are they even balancing around when it’s 1.5 million Dungeon runs per week of groups made through complete anarchy?
There’s no index to balance around in that scenario. What kind of experience the player has is very much down to whatever kind of group they end up with in LFG – and Blizzard have no say in that at all.

If you have a queue system and you can set the parameters for the kind of groups that are made, then you have an index to balance around, and you can start to ensure a baseline degree of quality for every group that a player gets into – because you get to decide what those groups are. So you can eliminate all those silly outliers and broken comps that just don’t work and instead give players a consistent group setup every time that Blizzard can then balance around, and for once be able to be in control of.

I think it just needs to be able to put groups together faster than the LFG experience does.
And it can most definitely do that even if the amount of tanks and healers don’t change, because there are plenty of other factors for why LFG is an inefficient system for creating groups.

That’s not to say that WoW wouldn’t benefit from having more tanks and healers, because it would. But it is to say that the justification for a queue system does not rely on that.

Great conclusion!

99 posts, so thanks for the discussion. Nice chat, interesting topic. We’ll see what happens. I’m sure Blizzard will have something to share in the months to come. :v:

3850

I am not talking about the justification of the SoloQ.

First and foremost, there IS a shortage of Tanks and Healers. There is no way to paint it pretty or pretend that there is some “hidden group” somewhere escaping the statistics. Its simply a fact.

With that out of the way, you dont need to be a mathmatician to know what happens in this situation. You need 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 DDs to make a group.

If you only have 10 tanks, 10 healers and 100 DDs… the result of that has to mathematically equal to: 10 groups MAXIMUM. And 70 DDs with out a group.

Back to SoloQ. If the problem is waiting in Donorgal to form a group (this is the established porblem).

How would SoloQ solve the issue? Lets put it this way:

LFG today: 10 tanks, 10 healers and 100 DDs
SoloQ tomorrow: 10 tanks, 10 healers and 100 DDs

Or… lets say you got both. Then its the incentive problem. Are you 100% sure that the tank/healer distribution wont be like this?

LFG: 9 tanks, 9 healers and 40 DDs.
SoloQ: 1 tanks, 1 healers and 60 DDs.

Because this dosent solve anything either.

That is why this:

Is key.

You always say that. And yet, you always come back.

Accept that you like to argue. Like me. And thats it. :smiley: There is nothing wong with that.

If Blizzard’s policy depended on us, or we were about to cure cancer maybe. But we are just wasting our time here for fun. No other reason.

3851

I like to give people wins, so I’ll give you this one!

I really do want to back out, and will after this, because my long forum experience tells me that when discussions get too long and too argumentative, they end on a sour note. And I’m trying to not end my discussions on sour notes. It’s annoying. :confused:

Anyway,

I’ll try an analogy.

Let’s say me and my wife have to pick up an infinite number of kids from the school and drive them to our house before we go back to the school to pick up more kids.

Let’s say we drive an old Nissan that has room for 3 kids plus the 2 of us.

Let’s say that each round to pick up 3 kids and drive them to our house and get back to the school to pick up the next batch of kids takes 30 minutes.

Let’s say we have 8 hours to pick up as many kids as we can.

How many kids can Jito and his wife pick up in their old Nissan in 8 hours?

Well, let’s see. That’s 3 kids per 30 minutes, so that’s 6 kids per hour, times 8 is…48!

48 kids!

Now let’s say that the next day Jito and his wife have upgraded their old Nissan to a Ferrari.

It can also hold 3 kids plus the 2 of us.
But the Ferrari is much faster than the old Nissan, so it can do a round in 20 minutes.
So in 8 hours, how many kids can Jito and his wife pick up in the Ferrari?

Well, let’s see. That’s 3 kids per 20 minutes, so that’s 9 kids per hour, times 8 is…72!

72 kids!

The point you’re trying to make is that the way you transport more kids to the house is by getting more cars with more drivers to transport them.
And that is true, that would be the most efficient way.

The point I’m making is that if you improve the vehicle you transport the kids with, then you can also transport more kids, because you’re improving the time factor.

Back to WoW.
The LFG system is effectively just a means of transportation. It puts people into groups and gets them (manually) transported into dungeons.
If you improve the LFG system in any way so that it puts people into groups faster and transports them to dungeons faster, then you get more people into groups OVER TIME.

Time!

Time is the factor you leave out of your analysis, but it’s important. The faster the tanks and healers get into groups and the groups get going, the faster they get through the dungeon and become ready for another group and another dungeon run.

That’s where the efficiency of an automated queue system comes from. And frankly any other improvement you can think of for the LFG system that would speed up the group-making process would work to the same end.

And with that I’m really really done with this discussion. And that’s a promise! :no_mouth:

3852

I see.

So somehow, the time it takes to complete 1 dungeon would go down with SoloQ. From 30 minutes to 20 minutes.

In your analogy, the time Jito and his wife take (the tank and the healer) to take 3 kids (DDs) from school is 30 minutes. So each back is 30 minutes.

That is 1 dungeon. To change that to 20 min you need to nerf the dungeon. Got it !

It is important. But it cant get any faster than 0 seconds. That is the experience of a healer/tank with appropriate rio/experience for a given key.

You could increase the number of tanks/healers. If you cheat. One way to “fast track” more tanks is to take them from other key levels, where they would belong.

So a tank that has 500 rating and has done 3 +5 keys… wont get accepted to a +10 for example. The algorithm could place him on a +10 (for example) because those need more tanks. But maybe that tank is not ready for a +10. And will for sure wipe and deplete.

You could do it in reverse. Get tanks from higher keys. But then they dont get the reward they want. If a 3000 rio tank, that wants to push keys is put into a +10 group… he gains nothing so he leaves.

As you have seen. Its a zero sum game. The # of tanks/healers is a constant, and whatever you do you make someone wait for longer. So. To make a party on a +10 not wait as long, you have to, mathematically, make some party on a +5 or a +13 wait for longer.

This situation by the way, exists already with healers in SoloQ arenas. And you have healers that are placed into MMR groups that are WAY above theirs, or vice-versa. Crating a really degenerate situations. For example, healers in SoloQ can TIE a match, and still loose 50 rating.

Fair. But for others that might read this.

The # of tanks/healers and the time it takes to do a dungeon is a zero sum game. Those are constants.

The only way to change that is to: (A) change the specs themselves or (B) nerf the dungeons. Its the only way to increase tanks/healers and/or decrease the time it takes to do a dungeon.

Which implies: MAYBE… just MAYBE… the solution is to re-think healing and tanking. Maybe the solution is there instead of trying to make a computer solve an unsolvable problem.

3853

But then…

So which is it?

Changing accessibility changes the demographic, changing the demographic changes the expectations, changing the expectations changes the satisfaction, and changing the satisfaction provokes a response which changes the content.

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