Based off current beta tuning I do enjoy the fact that even at a 15 the dungeons are difficult and at a 20 extremely difficult but I can't wait for people to realize M+ is no longer the free mythic loot option
— Liquid Thdlock (@Thdlock) November 7, 2022
From playing the Beta I can attest that M+ will be causing a lot of problems with regards to difficulty. For the record on the beta your gear is scaled and you have tier sets from the start and access to most of the BiS consumables.
Not only this most M+ dungeons will be completely new to a large part of the player base.
I really do think Blizzard are making a mistake with M+ being so difficult. If heroic raiding is significantly easier, I think it will be okay though!!
M+ is definitely not going to be ´´free´´ top tier loot anymore though.
I think one of the biggest problems though is that balance is absurdly bad. Both with regards to dungeons but more importantly to specs.
Some specs are incredibly difficult to play and just awful. We will be seeing a lot of bring stupidly easy to play and OP classes in M+.
What problems?
Problems clearing the high Keys? Good!
Sense of actual progression through M+? Good!
Not everyone needs to be able to complete a 20…
It’s scaled to gear drops from +10s, for the record. Item level you can upgrade to without even needing any rating.
Classic, Classic TBC and Classic WTLK shows that players do not want extremely difficult progression. Don´t get me wrong I personally WILL enjoy this, just like I enjoyed S1 of BFA. But for the majority of the playerbase? They will just give up. This is my predication.
Also does not help that the dungeons kinda just suck.
If they want to play, they will find a way
Be it that lower keys are run more often or just paying for runs.
M+ isn’t the only way to progress anyway.
Weekly drops for +10 though.
You would have to spam +15s and 16s to get the type of gear required, and even then you have the top players struggle with even doing a +15 with gear dropping from +15s, and they are not playing the worst specs, let me just put it that way.
We will see what Blizzard do for season 2, 3 and 4, I predict they will backtrack like always.
No, 392 gear drops from the dungeons at +10.
They’re still 392 no matter what gear they obtain. That’s how the scaling aura works. You could have 9548959 ilvl and you’d still be scaled to 392. They’re doing the dungeons scaled to an ilvl that drops from +10s.
Live adjustments to dungeons are still missing to the equation.
Remember Necrotic Wake? Was probably the worst dungeon to have ever happened in S1 and it got nerfed so hard it turned out to be the easiest.
I think it’s just to offset the players that have left the game. They did x amount of keys, so for the number of total completed keys to remain the same, the remaining players have to do more. Otherwise the game mode appears less popular.
If max reward stayed at +15 the number of completed keys would likely go down. If DF does bad, by the next expansion it could be +25, then +30. Who knows?
Honestly I have changed my mind, the difficulty and Ilvl changes won´t even be the biggest problem. This change of mind comes from testing on the Beta for the past 4-5 weeks.
The biggest problem will be the 8 new dungeons you have to learn every season. Will massively put off the more casual players who feel they will now have to do homework on 8 new dungeons every single season.
The cycle of constantly having new dungeons every time is going to be a huge problem. It is going to feel awful to not only master 8 new dungeons every 5 months, but having to master the routes and the new affix. Then feeling like all the knowledge was completely wasted when the new season comes along.
Compare this.
Learning 8 new bosses in a raid?
To learning 8 new dungeons, with around 3-4 bosses in each dungeon. Routes that depend on the weekly affixes. 9-10 different mob abilities with the ability to one-shot or whatever depending on how high you push. All the while getting used to a new affix that pretty much requires a WA.
It´s kinda ironic, because re-using old dungeons is actually less lazy and requires more work than just having the new dungeons only in the m+ pool. Yet will probably make the new season less popular.
Also the old dungeons kinda just suck. Really make it clear how good the BFA dungeons were.
I know people see me as a negative nancy here, but I actually want the game to be good and succeed.
At least raiding now seems comparatively much better I guess?
Why do casuals should care about best gear? Ilumminate me
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random reply …
Context was casuals need to outgear content to complete it.
Therefore they care for better gear.
In my opinion raiding shouldn’t be about gear but about player Skill to complete content.
you are not wrong, they listened, but to wrong people.
nobody wants to admit it but spring 2023 gona be so sad in wow.
you know that you don’t have to start a new season with +16-20 keys, right?
Lower Keys can be considered training keys.
Therfore to get confident with new routes newer player can and should do lower keys …
and more experienced players should take their time and guide.
^
This is the most important message on the topic for the Game Metrics club over Blizzard HQ.
Players come to have fun, not raise to ever increasing demands in “effort putting”.
Reducing loot rewards at lower level, going backwards to ancient group loot systems, making raids and m+ harder… to extend play time will not improve activity metrics better.
Classic shows there is a deamand for simpler times. There are more logs for 14 (+2) year old Naxx than retail raids. Thats how little Warcaft communty values Blizzard mythic raid design done by a passionate and talented modern developers … absolute nuclear unmitigated disaster of the result.
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Is not relevant. It takes more than 1 season to learn dungeons. I/we were still learning in season 3. It is discouraging to take away dungeons you are still trying to understand, and putting new dungeons in.
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It seems like you are complaining that there is a lot of challenges to overcome if you want to continue playing after completing all content on normal.
Doesn’t seem bad you can keep playing on harder difficulties.
Then guilds which has a vast split of raider ability and nothing binding the people together will disband. Maybe it is for the better. A discord, 5signatures and a google form for application and you are set for a new guild.
Maybe we will have to plan and organize into m+ equally as a guild if we want to farm loot from it. Is that not better than, oh I need pug 4 mediocre runs so I don’t have to reclear for items from raid.
Does it? You sure its not the systems people dont wanna deal with?
Or the bad story telling thats the resson?
Maybe the class design?
Or the levelling experience maybe?
Or the pvp, the pvp was amazing in WotLK.
Or pure nostalgia maybe.
So many reasons why some people prefer classic, and you cherry pick with no evidence that supports you… hmmm…
Modern dungeon design is 100% uninteresting. Ion Hazzikostas should play Advanced Heroquest with his crew.
Dungeons should be dungeons and not mindless mobs standing there to be pulled in grp and AoE down. I entered Spires of Ascension once and left immediately after seeing how stupid it looked. Mobs were just walking or standing there without zero knowledge or observation about the presence of players. It felt extremely ridiculous.
Dungeons need so much more than just mob slaying. Bosses are another matter. They have zero connection to the most quest storylines and actual game world.
Spires has a very big connection to kyrian questline though.
And mobs are actually very dangerous. But you probably do not play tank or healer to notice.
In the first packs of spires we got mobs that do 1 shot frontals, mobs that cast that can 1 shot you without interrupting. Mobs that does debuffs on players that need to be dispelled. And some more dangerous casts are going on there.
This is certainly not just pull and aoe down and be done with it.