Mythic+ Affix Change Incoming - 30 October

[Ðesperate-the-maelstrom]

@Uda-uldum

So ? You spent 3 weeks doing keys you have already done. No progress.

Not sure what you mean by that.

@Uda-uldum

You swap to gear with more vers. You time your CDs better. You kick some things you used to previously ignore.

1. Won’t help if dying is not the issue but the damage. So would only work if you are not losing out on damage by swapping stats. But more important, swapping gear is sooooo not a challenge. That’s just annoying at best.
2. That’s something you learn on your way to the high keys and that’s the point where I meant tanks have to adjust the pulls to squeeze out more overall damage. Yet my actual argument was that you already reached all that. Call it your natural limit if you will.
3. That should not be the case. We are speaking about high keys. Knowing what to CC and what to interrupt is a precondition.

@Uda-uldum

If mobs have more HP healer DPS becomes relevant so your talent choices and rotation change (more offensive, same for tanks). Damage also becomes relevant, so DPS talent choices and rotation change (more defensive)…

Ye and this was my point where I said you basically have to reroll or wait for more gear or nerfs. How is that a challenge? I just don’t see it.

@Uda-uldum

You dont. Others do.

I am trying to figure those out but nobody seems to be willing to share. Looking at the numbers of high keys it seems like people are not fired up to put in the effort to clear those?

@Uda-uldum

Because what you find “fun” is not the same for everyone. Being punished with Fortified + Bolsterin is something people did not find “fun”. Myself included.

So because one mix of affixes was bad, we just remove them all together? How is that fun? Why not come up with something fun that works and not stale more dmg received, less damage done?
Don’t you think there is a reason why people don’t even bother pushing +12s?
+10s are done by ~2,1 mil people and +12 by ~100k? Yes, +12 are a bit harder but not by THAT much. I am pretty sure if people found it actually fun to play, you’d see more people doing those.

@Uda-uldum

I mean… if you dont like M+ just say it !

I don’t like the current season and I say it.
The squish basically removed the illusion of progress and grind while pushing higher is not just boring but also pointless.

@Uda-uldum

M+ is by defenition doing the same dungeon over and over again. The affixes were not “variation”. They were just a nuisance on top.

Just say you don’t like M+ :^)
In BfA and SL I 100% had MUCH more fun playing healer in M+. Where you see nuisance, I see the actual challenge. I like when it sometimes can become unpredictable, yet I am able to make up for it. I don’t like playing like a bot the same mechanics over and over again without anything that changes at all.

[Uda-uldum]

@Nellja-magtheridon

So you would invite a 570 ilvl player with 2600 rio over a 620 ilvl, 2200 rio scored player? Huh, very interesting.

This in practice never happens. If you get to 2600 rio (boosted or not) you are guaranteed to have a ton of hero peices placing you at 615 ilvl.

So now, realistically the question becomes:

Would i prefer a 2600 rio player with 615 ilvl or a 2200 rio player with 630. 2600 rio player any time of the day.

@Nellja-magtheridon

You understand, that due to this being a team effort, a player can be carried (paid or otherwise) to very high scores without any gear?

Of course. The booster trump card. Always scratching for unrealistic scenarios.

Boosted people dont show skill for the rio they got. They 100% of the time have MORE gear than regular people, because they get boosted beyond the key level they should have.

So its a guy with 2600 rio playing like a guy with 1000 rio. THAT is the telltale sign of a bossted individual. Not ilvl.

@Nellja-magtheridon

RIO is also progression. Why can’t you progress in two measurable aspects while doing one type of content?

Because you can progress in gear but not rio. But if you progress rio you have to deliberatelly throw away items to not progress in ilvl.

So Rio > ilvl.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

Not sure what you mean by that.

In past seasons (not this one) if you timed a 12 with some affixes one week. You had no chance of timing a 13 with different affixes. ONLY on “push weeks”. So. You spent 3 weeks doing 11s. Which dont give any rio.

You log in for 3 weeks knowing that you will gain ZERO rio that week. And on “push weeks” you logged in all stressed because you had 1 week to time as many keys as possible before you had to wait 3 more weeks again.

That is what it means.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

That’s something you learn on your way to the high keys and that’s the point where I meant tanks have to adjust the pulls to squeeze out more overall damage. Yet my actual argument was that you already reached all that. Call it your natural limit if you will.

In previous seasons, if your “natural limit” was a +6 then sure you can squeeze more things.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

That should not be the case. We are speaking about high keys. Knowing what to CC and what to interrupt is a precondition.

But you dont just teleport to high keys. There is a progression from low to high. For some its really fast. For others it takes a whole season. But there is still a progression.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

Ye and this was my point where I said you basically have to reroll or wait for more gear or nerfs. How is that a challenge? I just don’t see it.

Changing rotation and talents has nothing to do with nerfing stuff or having more gear. It means pressing different buttons.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

I am trying to figure those out but nobody seems to be willing to share. Looking at the numbers of high keys it seems like people are not fired up to put in the effort to clear those?

Not this season. There are reasons for that. But in previous seasons there were a lot of people pushing keys.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

Yes, +12 are a bit harder but not by THAT much. I am pretty sure if people found it actually fun to play, you’d see more people doing those.

Bro. You… have… no… idea… A “bit harder” is an understatement. Its as if you dont play M+ or read the forums at all.

But that is something special from this season that did not exist in previous seasons. And it has nothing to do with the absence of affixes, but specifically the choice of affixes for this season (damage modifiers stacked on top of eachother).

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

I don’t like the current season and I say it.
The squish basically removed the illusion of progress and grind while pushing higher is not just boring but also pointless.

Agree with this statement. They should remove the squish.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

In BfA and SL I 100% had MUCH more fun playing healer in M+. Where you see nuisance, I see the actual challenge. I like when it sometimes can become unpredictable, yet I am able to make up for it. I don’t like playing like a bot the same mechanics over and over again without anything that changes at all.

But you talk as if you only do low keys. Low keys are a different thing than high keys. BfA and SL was boring as hell because there was nothing to heal ! There was nothing upredictable. And rightfully so, because any “unpredictable” things simply 1-shot you. Nothing to heal there.

[Nellja-magtheridon]

@Uda-uldum

Because you can progress in gear but not rio. But if you progress rio you have to deliberatelly throw away items to not progress in ilvl.

So Rio > ilvl.

There’s no interpretation that would make this make sense.

You can progress both in RIO and gear at the same time. It’s not rocket science. You get more gear and you get more experience, skill.

This in return allows you to time harder key levels.

[Ðesperate-the-maelstrom]

@Uda-uldum

In past seasons (not this one) if you timed a 12 with some affixes one week. You had no chance of timing a 13 with different affixes. ONLY on “push weeks”. So. You spent 3 weeks doing 11s.

Idk that was not the case for me. But I kinda don’t understand why it’s 3 weeks and 11s if you timed +12? Do you mean the affixes rotated so poorly that you couldn’t do +13 on third week?
When I played you had 2 weeks of different affixes while 2 main affixes were always fixed. If you can’t time 13 on week one, you do it on week 2. If you could time it on week 1 but got not enough time (because of weekly reset), you can do it in 2 weeks.
I kinda don’t understand where those 3 weeks and and 11s come from.

@Uda-uldum

Which dont give any rio.
You log in for 3 weeks knowing that you will gain ZERO rio that week.

What happened to fun and entertainment? :^) Why does everything have to be productive?

@Uda-uldum

But you dont just teleport to high keys. There is a progression from low to high. For some its really fast. For others it takes a whole season. But there is still a progression.

Ye but we are speaking about (lack of) affixes, fun and challenge. Which means +12 and higher. People should know what to interrupt and what to cc by that time.

@Uda-uldum

But you dont just teleport to high keys. There is a progression from low to high. For some its really fast. For others it takes a whole season. But there is still a progression.

Ye and this progression was the fun part. Was.

@Uda-uldum

Changing rotation and talents has nothing to do with nerfing stuff or having more gear. It means pressing different buttons.

Adjust your gear and build is something you do once, if for some reason you didn’t do that before arriving at high keys. Usually people understand that and adapt on their way to the high key. That’s not a challenge tho.

@Uda-uldum

Not this season. There are reasons for that. But in previous seasons there were a lot of people pushing keys.

And that’s the point. What changed?

@Uda-uldum

Bro. You… have… no… idea… A “bit harder” is an understatement. Its as if you dont play M+ or read the forums at all.

Tbf the complains of people on forums are like 99% caused by lack of experience.
I did try +12 myself with pugs tho and groups always fell apart. Yet it was not really harder. You do literally the same mechanics minus people can’t fail orbs. What else? More incoming damage? Yes. Finally less overhealing. Great.

@Uda-uldum

But that is something special from this season that did not exist in previous seasons. And it has nothing to do with the absence of affixes, but specifically the choice of affixes for this season (damage modifiers stacked on top of eachother).

I mean… that’s the whole point? Flat out more damage received and less damage done are simply not affixes^^
Also, if it was not THAT boring, you probably would have more people (also good people) playing, which then would result in easier runs.

@Uda-uldum

But you talk as if you only do low keys. Low keys are a different thing than high keys. BfA and SL was boring as hell because there was nothing to heal ! There was nothing upredictable. And rightfully so, because any “unpredictable” things simply 1-shot you. Nothing to heal there.

I mean I was pugging and people failing affixes did not always result in one shot. Meanwhile what you just said is actually EXACTLY what we have right now, besides the part with the healing. If someone fails mechanics at high keys, it’s usually a one shot or basically dead in one global. The “affixes” which are straight more dmg received and less dmg done, are not helpful in this regard.

Would you say going from +9 to +10 is harder than from +10 to +11?
I’d say yes and if you do agree, then the numbers show us that most people cba playing higher not because of difficulty but different reasons.

[Uda-uldum]

Look. I am not going to waste my time trying to justify why affixes sucked in the past. Because they did. For multiple reasons I have already explained.

And I might not agree with blizzard on many things this season. But removing them on high keys is ONE of the things with which I agree. Dungeons are hard enough on those keys, and that should be the focus of the difficulty.

But. You dont seem to do high keys. Not now. Not in the past. So you dont care. You STILL got the Gile affixes and tyranical/fortified rotation in keys < 10. Which is OK. It provides the “variety” you want.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

Would you say going from +9 to +10 is harder than from +10 to +11?
I’d say yes and if you do agree, then the numbers show us that most people cba playing higher not because of difficulty but different reasons.

Yes, I agree. Because this season, a 10 is BOTH tyranical and fortified, unlike a 9 that only has 1 of them. So its an extra modifier on top of the modifier.

And its blocking many people. Same for 12s. And same for 4s when tyranical/fortified starts to rotate.

So the “difficulty” curve this season looks like a stair case. Unlike previous seasons that the difficulty curve was smoother and looked like a curve.

And this is a problem. A big one. And that is why people dont do 10s, or 12s. Or 5s. Depending on what level you play in.

@Nellja-magtheridon

There’s no interpretation that would make this make sense.

You can progress both in RIO and gear at the same time. It’s not rocket science. You get more gear and you get more experience, skill.

This in return allows you to time harder key levels.

What dosent make sense here ?

That you AUTOMATICALLY progress in gear if you progress in Rio ? Its not about “wanting” to progress in gear. Its simply that you “do”. Wether you want it or not. As long as you progress in Rio.

You cant say the same the inverse. You dont automatically progress in Rio if your ONLY goal is to farm gear.

[Cunix-turalyon]

This change is only good for people there are already only playing 5 man together every single day for anyone else this is just a bandaid on a crack in blizzards butt.

[Richardhuntr-silvermoon]

To be honest there’s no real fix to this, even this change has reduced the value of the high keys people have completed before the change, as there’s rating in this mode, this matters.

The best solution would be to remove the afffx in s2, and hope that there’s still people around to enjoy s2.

[Cunix-turalyon]

Naahh best solution would be to act now instead of this pissing around contest it’s a bad affix remove it at this point rather have thundering back than this

[Uda-uldum]

@Richardhuntr-silvermoon

The best solution would be to remove the afffx in s2, and hope that there’s still people around to enjoy s2.

Fair enough. You have a point. Then I expect blizzard to comunicate this. Why do we need to “hope” quitetly in a corner ?

But deep down I do think there is a solution. Its gonna cost a ton of work to execute because it implies going pack by pack and tuning specific mob abilities to dampen their impact.

And given the backlash they are getting, this season deserves this type of “extra work” we normally dont get in M+.

[Cunix-turalyon]

Tons of work u mean slap a mount out and fire QA department

[Richardhuntr-silvermoon]

Sadly this will be thier solution, get the “ELECTRIC BLUE” thundering brutosaur that adds an m+ portal vendor for only $200! Sadly spending 5 minutes on this means we can’t change the m+ that much.

/Sarcasm

[Cunix-turalyon]

Naahh next thing is gonna be the Affix toy chooser 400€.

[Petergrippín-stormscale]

Portals, 2500 ach for shoulder appearance. There are still rewards for +10 outside of gear, and in the past when +20 had those same rewards, you’d get Myth track in the vault from +16 or 17 keys. All they accomplished with this change is making gearing more tedious and frustrating, and I’ve quit doing M+ on most of my alts. I do keys on my Bear and BDK. The rest are better off with Delves. I just can’t be bothered grinding out 999999999 crests just to end up with hero track gear when the season is over.

[Ðesperate-the-maelstrom]

@Uda-uldum

But. You dont seem to do high keys. Not now. Not in the past. So you dont care. You STILL got the Gile affixes and tyranical/fortified rotation in keys < 10. Which is OK. It provides the “variety” you want.

Wdym? I do 11s and 12s when I get the chance to but obviously nobody wants an Rdruid. So I play only the keys of my friends.
Look, you find the mechanics too hard, I find the lack of variation boring. Both is maybe true but the fact is that it results in less people playing and here is where the circle begins. If players are bored, they are not playing, also good players, therefore what actually might be easy, turns out to be harder. In the end you have barely anyone playing because everyone is sweating about their rio instead of actually trying and maybe understanding that meta is not everything.

I could even agree to not have any affixes but then you should have fun mechanics and imo those are much harder to implement. From what I understood, you are not happy with the current mechanics design, either, right? That’s why I am for the affixes. They bring variation, while you don’t need this kind of “broken mechanics”.
This season simply lacks everything idk…

@Uda-uldum

Yes, I agree. Because this season, a 10 is BOTH tyranical and fortified, unlike a 9 that only has 1 of them. So its an extra modifier on top of the modifier.

And its blocking many people.

But that’s the thing tho. According to wowhead +9s are played by ~2,5 mil people, +10s by ~2,1 mil but +11s only by ~600k… so there is something people don’t dislike and I don’t think it’s the difficulty increase. I personally think it’s the lack of… whatever. Variation, rewards, meaningful progress… whatever it might be but probably not difficulty.

@Uda-uldum

So the “difficulty” curve this season looks like a stair case. Unlike previous seasons that the difficulty curve was smoother and looked like a curve.

Ye the progression felt very weird. It’s like you skip the early game, rush through mid game in no time and end up in the end game with no people left.
I am sitting basically “fully” geared with my Druid and got no content to play. I wouldn’t even mind doing low keys (which I do to help friends and some people since I have nothing to do) but at least for some gold or something…

[Richardhuntr-silvermoon]

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

I wouldn’t even mind doing low keys (which I do to help friends and some people since I have nothing to do) but at least for some gold or something…

Answer is simple: Offer the ability to spend 90 crests on changing an item from one track to the next. For example 90 gilded to change a maxed Heroic item into a 1/6 mythic item.

That way if you can’t get mythic track items by farming +12s, you can just farm the crests in +8s and make the upgrades that make it easier to take part in +12s.

[Uda-uldum]

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

Wdym? I do 11s and 12s when I get the chance to but obviously nobody wants an Rdruid. So I play only the keys of my friends.
Look, you find the mechanics too hard, I find the lack of variation boring.

Raider IO sais you havent done a single 12. And only 3 11s.

If your gonna rant about lack of affixes on 12s and above, you might want to actually try to atleast finish some of them.

Like I said. You talk as if you havent done high keys before.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

Both is maybe true but the fact is that it results in less people playing and here is where the circle begins.

I have data to compare this season with. S3 of DF. When things were easier more people played high keys.

The reason people dont do high keys is not because they are bored. Its the following:

• The difficulty spike between 9 and 10 is so severe that when you offer people to do an 11 they say: “HELL NO !”. And its the EXACT same affixes between a 10 and an 11.

THAT is the reason.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

In the end you have barely anyone playing because everyone is sweating about their rio instead of actually trying and maybe understanding that meta is not everything.

You are making stuff up at this point.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

From what I understood, you are not happy with the current mechanics design, either, right? That’s why I am for the affixes. They bring variation, while you don’t need this kind of “broken mechanics”.

I am not happy with many things. But these affixes of stacking “modifiers on top of modifiers” is the worst decision they could make.

Its similar in frustration to Fortified + Bolstering weeks in DF. Where modifiers stacked on top of modifiers.

So yes. Removing affixes is better than what we have now.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

But that’s the thing tho. According to wowhead +9s are played by ~2,5 mil people, +10s by ~2,1 mil but +11s only by ~600k… so there is something people don’t dislike and I don’t think it’s the difficulty increase. I personally think it’s the lack of… whatever. Variation, rewards, meaningful progress… whatever it might be but probably not difficulty.

If people swet like hell to complete 10s, because the difficulty spike. Why would they do 11s ?

And those that do 11s, why would they do 12s which is an even MORE severe difficulty spike ?

It has nothing to do with lack of variety.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

Ye the progression felt very weird. It’s like you skip the early game, rush through mid game in no time and end up in the end game with no people left.
I am sitting basically “fully” geared with my Druid and got no content to play. I wouldn’t even mind doing low keys (which I do to help friends and some people since I have nothing to do) but at least for some gold or something…

YES ! Because if the season is hard people dont progress. And you need PEOPLE to play!

That is why they need to remove the key level squish, make progression smoother and longer (so that each incement is not so big) and get myth trac gear back to a +6 like it used to be. DONE.

You did not play in S3 of DF. But it was heaven on earth for the M+ scene because of those reasons. It was such a popular season (across ALL keylevels) that its the ONLY season in wow’s history that saw more participation than the preceding seasons.

[Ðesperate-the-maelstrom]

@Uda-uldum

Raider IO sais you havent done a single 12. And only 3 11s.

Because I am pugging. And it seems people have very unstable connection in +12s :^)
Getting invites in +12 is basically impossible on Rdruid, so I am only doing my keys or friends keys and I have to take whatever I can, not whatever I want.

@Uda-uldum

If your gonna rant about lack of affixes on 12s and above, you might want to actually try to atleast finish some of them.

I did try and the difficulty was not an issue.
Issue is not playing meta spec.
Issue is lack of players.

@Uda-uldum

Like I said. You talk as if you havent done high keys before.

How so? I played them? You should not confuse my experience and skill with not having a pre-made or not being able to get in groups. That’s absolutely different issues.

@Uda-uldum

The reason people dont do high keys is not because they are bored. Its the following:

• The difficulty spike between 9 and 10 is so severe that when you offer people to do an 11 they say: “HELL NO !”. And its the EXACT same affixes between a 10 and an 11.

THAT is the reason.

Ye but that’s the difference between 9 and 10, not 10 and 11.
The difficulty spike between 10 and 11 is barely existent. Also people don’t gain anything from 11 that they can’t get from 10, so why doing 11? It’s not more fun, nor more rewarding, correct? Even the rio chasers are not even really getting rio from this.
As I said, there might be many reasons why people don’t want to play +11s but difficulty is none of them. I for example, have to sit like an hour in queue and it doesn’t mean I will also get invited. If playing my own key, due to lack of people I have to pick whatever is there.
Just recently I did +11 SV with ilvl 620 monk tank. Do you truly think anyone would take me as Rdruid with ilvl 620 in any +11 key? lmao… I am getting declined even with my gear.

@Uda-uldum

You are making stuff up at this point.

Really? Are you saying there are no people, especially in pugs, sweating about their rio? Or is there no lack of players in high keys? Or are people not blindly following meta? Are you sure about that?

@Uda-uldum

If people swet like hell to complete 10s, because the difficulty spike. Why would they do 11s ?

And those that do 11s, why would they do 12s which is an even MORE severe difficulty spike ?

It has nothing to do with lack of variety.

Because people simply would still play IF it was fun? Isn’t that the main reason we are playing in the first place? We do want the challenge, right? But not a boring one that’s nothing but a gear check. (obviously assuming that people know the mechanics, which they should in the high keys)

@Uda-uldum

YES ! Because if the season is hard people dont progress. And you need PEOPLE to play!

That is why they need to remove the key level squish, make progression smoother and longer

Ye, I agree.

@Uda-uldum

You did not play in S3 of DF. But it was heaven on earth for the M+ scene because of those reasons. It was such a popular season (across ALL keylevels) that its the ONLY season in wow’s history that saw more participation than the preceding seasons.

Hm… rip. Ye I got only told by my friends that it’s ultra easy and barely any healing is required, so I didn’t even bother tbh.

[Uda-uldum]

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

Because I am pugging. And it seems people have very unstable connection in +12s :^)
Getting invites in +12 is basically impossible on Rdruid, so I am only doing my keys or friends keys and I have to take whatever I can, not whatever I want.

I get you. No biggie.

But if you are going to talk about affixes at that difficulty, you should atleast have some experience in it.

Claiming its “not so hard” and “boring cause no affixes” is an over-extension. You THINK its “not so hard” and “boring” but you dont really know.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

I did try and the difficulty was not an issue.
Issue is not playing meta spec.
Issue is lack of players.

Sure.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

How so? I played them? You should not confuse my experience and skill with not having a pre-made or not being able to get in groups. That’s absolutely different issues.

You just gave me a list of reasons WHY you did not do high keys. Wich is OK. But the fact that you did not still remains.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

Really? Are you saying there are no people, especially in pugs, sweating about their rio? Or is there no lack of players in high keys? Or are people not blindly following meta? Are you sure about that?

Oh for sure. ALL those things exist and are a problem. But the cause is known. Its the difficulty spikes.

NOT the lack of “variety” in affixes like you claim.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

Because people simply would still play IF it was fun? Isn’t that the main reason we are playing in the first place? We do want the challenge, right? But not a boring one that’s nothing but a gear check. (obviously assuming that people know the mechanics, which they should in the high keys)

YES ! But its not fun because its so punishing. Nothing to do with the old affixes.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

Hm… rip. Ye I got only told by my friends that it’s ultra easy and barely any healing is required, so I didn’t even bother tbh.

Well your frand is incorrect. He claims no healing was required while simultaniously claiming he “did not bother with the season” and did not play. Which I find contradicting.

There WAS healing required. In lower keys because people did mistakes. And in higher keys because things did more damage.

But the fact still remains. Its is the best season ever by any metric you use.

[Ðesperate-the-maelstrom]

@Uda-uldum

But if you are going to talk about affixes at that difficulty, you should atleast have some experience in it.

Well I do.

@Uda-uldum

Claiming its “not so hard” and “boring cause no affixes” is an over-extension. You THINK its “not so hard” and “boring” but you dont really know.

Wdym I think? As a healer I know if I have to heal more or not, no? The issue in my +12 runs was some dps failing any mechanic and you have insta one guy “dc” or simply leaving. Pugging +12s is crazy.
And that’s the thing. Why should I bother so much, putting in all that effort, going through all this stress… for what exactly? To play a key without affixes? The community is making it hard enough already. Not only is the design not fun by default but I have to struggl through all these sweaty rio tryhards. People are literally not playing this for the sake of the challenge but for the sake of the rio.

@Uda-uldum

You just gave me a list of reasons WHY you did not do high keys. Wich is OK. But the fact that you did not still remains.

What exactly is your point? If I go any +12 and parse 99% healing, is it gonna do anything? Or will I somehow lack experience still because any dps is gonna fail something basic and one guy leaves then? Obviously I can not carry an entire group, yes. But how exactly does this make me lack experience or struggle with the difficulty level?
Also, what do you consider high? 11 or only 12 and higher?
My latest +11 SV run with a pug group, a “low” geared tank and a demo warlock, which apparently is considered C tier, and we still did it in time, while I was healing 950k overall (according to wcl, on details it’s higher of course). This puts me #37 of all logged runs for +11 SV. Yet it was not hard.
You do confuse two different things here. Experience + skill level vs finding a group. I’d claim to have more than enough experience and skill but obviously finding a group that’s willing to play with Rdruid is not that easy and yet there is nothing of value offered for me to go through these struggles in order to make sure to find such a group. It’s just not worth the effort.

@Uda-uldum

But the cause is known. Its the difficulty spikes.

The argument is flawed tho? You have more people playing +9s and +10s than +11 meanwhile the spike is MUCH bigger from 9 to 10 than from 10 to 11? Where are all the +10s people pushing +11s then?

@Uda-uldum

YES ! But its not fun because its so punishing. Nothing to do with the old affixes.

What is punishing tho? Again, the difficulty spike from 10 to 11 is barely existens and we have millions of people playing +10s. The mechanics are the same too. So what EXACTLY is different then? Maybe the reaso is not because it’s punishing but because the needs (whatever those might be) of people are not covered? For me it’s variey. For some it might be gear. For someone else something else.

@Uda-uldum

Well your frand is incorrect. He claims no healing was required while simultaniously claiming he “did not bother with the season” and did not play. Which I find contradicting.

? He did play, I didn’t bother to play. Not sure what you read here.

[Uda-uldum]

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

People are literally not playing this for the sake of the challenge but for the sake of the rio.

Its one and the same. I dont understand why you struggle to grasp that concept.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

Pugging +12s is crazy.

WHY ?

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

parse 99% healing

Parsin in M+ is meaningless. A good healer parses low percentile.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

My latest +11 SV run with a pug group, a “low” geared tank and a demo warlock, which apparently is considered C tier, and we still did it in time, while I was healing 950k overall (according to wcl, on details it’s higher of course). This puts me #37 of all logged runs for +11 SV. Yet it was not hard.

Yeah… but in a 12 it will not be that easy. And that is the whole point. There are a TON of people 3 chesting an 11, but wiping in a 12. And that is not a smooth difficulty curve.

Which puts any people off. And hence, low participation rates.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

The argument is flawed tho? You have more people playing +9s and +10s than +11 meanwhile the spike is MUCH bigger from 9 to 10 than from 10 to 11? Where are all the +10s people pushing +11s then?

Its not. If you had to claw your way to 10s you are exhausted. You dont want to go through that all over again.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

What is punishing tho?

You have the standard difficulty modifiers. Those have existed since for ever.

• At 5+ you add tyranical or fortified (previous seasons you had that by default across all levels). So its the difficulty modifier PLUS 30%.
• At 10+ you add BOTH tyranical and fortified. So an EXTRA 30% on top of the modifiers.
• At 12+ you remove the giles (which effectively is like having BL for 50% of the dungeon), AND you add 10% on top to the BASE damage. Which affects multiplicative.

That is what you add. Modifiers on top of modifiers. Adding damage on top of damage. And to add insult to injury, you got the 15s/death at 8+.

@Ðesperate-the-maelstrom

He did play, I didn’t bother to play. Not sure what you read here.

I read what you wrote. “Did not bother”. That is what you wrote. And that means, he “passed” or “did not do something”.