Charge doesn’t stun. Cleave is reduced after 5 targets. Arms never takes Shockwave.
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I have no trouble playing melee in Uldaman. I just make sure there’s a marker on the tank, and don’t stand on it. It isn’t the fault of mechanics if you’re incapable of doing something that simple.
As you say the cleaves from the earthen after the 2nd boss can be avoided pretty comfortably. However there’s also the claps from the big guys you need to LoS, the stomp around the berserkers in the first area, and the slam from bromach. These are mitigated a LOT in higher keys though because you pull so big that even when one mob is doing an area denial, there’s always enough things to swap to and maintain your uptime. Same with Nokhud offensive and to a lesser extent azure vault.
Again, I don’t know how many times I must repeat this, it’s not about just not standing on top of the tank, it’s the amount of things melee have to worry about as opposed to ranged specs. Like ellipsis said, while the mobs are cleaving you have to LoS the claps you have to interrupt/stop the casts and aggro is alot more punishing to a melee that doesn’t have fade/mirror images. Monk’s interrupt is also melee range, so while ranged players only have to worry about LoS’ing the claps there’s alot more going on for melee in this dungeon.
So are various other classes’ interrupts, and yet they manage.
Also consider for a moment how much worse it is for feral druids (my usual main) when casts are going out during these area denials. We do get a bit of an extension on our melee range for damage, but if we make the mistake of trying to interrupt something, it charges us straight into the damage effect. Hey, but at least we have an interrupt every 15 seconds, and we can actually see the mob we’re trying to interrupt because the tank hasn’t LOS’ed us behind a wall or pillar.
You go on with your rant about how hard it is for melee specs as if you don’t realise you’re talking to someone who has played primarily melee specs throughout DF. You go on and on about how hard it is for melee specs, and you it never occurs to you how hard it is for ranged to actually do damage in dungeons like Uldaman when the tank is chaining and ranged don’t get a chance to stand and cast before the mobs are out of LOS again. I’ve played both and (aside from BM hunter that can do damage on the move) ranged is so much harder in Uldaman.
Don’t allow yourself to be ruled by your zugzug brain, and this isn’t a problem.
The aggro ‘problems’ do make me laugh a bit.
Neltharus first pull is the perfect example. You know the tank is going to love tap the first 2 mobs on their way to gathering the other 2/3 packs yet some people insist on blowing their load and perpetually acting surprised they get smashed.
I have some symapthy with ww because they are aggro magnets but its something they should be able to figure out…
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Where did I say I don’t manage, I’m just saying it’s harder for melee, that when I step into certain dungeons I feel a large amount of pressure I don’t feel when I’m playing ranged, that’s pretty much it. I’m not saying I can’t do basic mechanics, I’ve been a long time mythic raider and I push pretty high key levels all things considered especially since I’m pugging as a non-meta class.
Well honestly your reaction gives me the impression you don’t play melee specs, the fact you have to deal with 1-shot frontals inevitably makes the packs harder, I think it’d be insane to say they don’t add any form of difficulty, especially since they’re so prevalent and other mechanics are going on at the same time. It’s something that predominantly melee have to deal with. Just don’t stand on the tank gives me the same vibe as ‘‘just interrupt’’ or ‘‘just use your defensives’’ just because something can be played around doesn’t mean that it doesn’t make something harder.
This doesn’t address my point of aggro being more of a problem for melee at all, ranged sometimes do pull aggro and die, but when it happens they aren’t immediately dead out of nowhere, also the meta classes have anti-threat abilities/passives.
I never die to the wardens, but what does happen sometimes is that I get aggro on the thaumaturge I’m trying to focus down, even after everything is grouped and the mobs are gathered. This is mostly due to tanks being bad though, it rarely happens with good tanks, but that doesn’t change the fact that when I rip aggro as a melee it can be an instant one shot.
Again guys, I’m not arguing that melee face an impossible challenge when stepping into this season of M+, I’m just trying to argue that melee have it harder than ranged.
When I play with my WW friend he rips aggro the second he pops CDs with some tanks, regardless of what we’re fighting or how long he waits. He ripped aggro on the last boss of brackenhide earlier this week…
It’s a single mob.
It happens less with the S4 set since the S3 tier set gave such unbelievable 1-5 target burst, but yeah WW does alot of upfront damage, I do notice it happens alot less with higher rated tanks.
Allow me to raise a rather counter intuitive observation.
The bigger the pull, the easier it is for melee on average and the harder for ranged.
More mobs typically means more ranged only ish to dodge / disrupt your gameplay, but more mobs means a wider field of play for melee and more options to cleave / maintain uptime whilst dealing with mechanics.
Nokhud Offensive is a prime example for this.
I don’t find it harder. I put a marker on the tank and don’t stand on it. Simple. If the marker moves towards me, I move away from it. Also simple. I move constantly, and dodging mechanics is just part of that constant flow of movement.
I struggle as ranged because I have to:
- position myself so I can stand and cast without getting LOS’ed
- position myself so I can stand and cast without the tank running mobs onto me
- judge when to start a cast so that I can finish it before a mechanic forces me to move
- judge when to start a cast so that I can finish it before a silence mechanic happens
- plan when to use my long interrupt to best advantage
- often stand in melee range to use CC (druid typhoon, mage dragon’s breath, etc) while still having to find a safe place to stand still and cast
As melee I can just wait for the tank to get solid aggro, then dance around and zugzug.
it depends right, most melee are target capped in one form or another, often times cleaving on lower prio mobs isn’t exactly conducive to timing the key faster. To take nokhud for example, the more you pull the more of the big guys you have that cleave everything in front of them and do war stomps. Now you can full focus the smaller guys, but that doesn’t make the big guys go down faster.
I do wholeheartedly agree that the first few packs in nokhud are WAY harder for ranged, the mobs that put a bleed on ranged are a nightmare, in the same vein I would’ve said that Vortex Pinnacle was harder for ranged for that exact reason.
I don’t entirely agree though that bigger pulls necessarily make it easier for melee like I mentioned, the target cap most melee have to deal with makes bigger pulls inherently harder. On shadow priest for example yes, you can only DoT 8 mobs with shadow crash, but if you manually DoT the other mobs your damage only goes up in a straight line when introducing more mobs. on WW SCK is target capped, FoF is target capped etc. This wasn’t necessarily a problem last season since alot of the pulls were relatively small, but this season it’s one big pull after another.
Also being ranged makes pulls alot less chaotic. This might just be a personal problem, but when I’m playing melee and there are mobs everywhere around me casting things etc. I lose focus, to watch the pull from a distance makes it easier to control. This is probably a skill issue though, but I’m able to focus alot better on the pack as a whole when I’m playing ranged.
I feel alot of these are tank issues, and most of these things aren’t exactly a problem for the current meta comp either. I can see how the tank constantly moving would make things harder for something like a destro warlock, but SP can cast shadow crash while moving, they have feathers to move around the dungeon quickly, they have several instant cast procs to anticipate movement. Mage can just blink in and out, I’d say frost has to stay close to melee for optimal dps, but again we’re talking about the tankiest class in the entire game that’s very mobile during combat and has alot of ways to deal with threat and can do most of their rotation while on the move, same with boomkin, same with hunters. I feel there are only a few specs that truly struggle with movement.
But yeah if a tank is actively LoSing you it’s super annoying as ranged, I’m not saying ranged don’t have their own grievances to deal with, but with good tanks you see these things alot less.
Kinda depends. Usually you are deliberately focusing down the smaller mobs in those packs so your tank can drag the plainstomper into the next pull.
Also I didn’t necessarily mean full focus, more that the larger / more spread the pull is the easier it is to find auxiliary targets and maintain uptime when area denial mechanics do occur.
Same with the spinners in BH and the berserkers in the first section of Uldaman. If you’re pulling small those mechanics can cover the entire available space to DPS the pack.
That actually makes perfect sense, and I do encourage people to pull large in there. Especially as a WW monk during SEF I can do my rotation on a single mob while my clones are hitting the rest of the pack when I’m ever being area denied by for example a stomp. I do have to say though, that ranged can simple wait for the tank to group everything and dps from a distance. They’re not exactly in danger of one shot mechanics in there unless people are missing stops/interrupts.
BH has been an absolute nightmare though, especially with raging. those mobs that fixate legit do 800k+ damage to you in less than a second and if you don’t coordinate interrupts/stops the casters will one shot anybody that gets targetted with too many earth bolts. I definitely find those pulls extremely unpredictable as a melee, you can’t get too close during the spins (in the case they aren’t being enrage dispelled) and the fixate mobs make things very dangerous for both melee and ranged, but if you get targetted as a melee and the mob isn’t stopped you mostly just instantly die.
I agree chaining the big guys in Nokhud is the best course of action, they’re easy to deal with unless the tank is moving/kiting erratically. Those packs are without a doubt harder for ranged than they are for melee.
It’s moreso that, in general, the majority of mechanics a pack has will be more disruptive to well played ranged than well played melee, but the mechanics that do disrupt melee tend to be more disruptive individually.
Take the large pulls in the Nokhud Graveyard area, not pulling one pack at a time but taking 2, even 3 packs at once in some areas. Having multiple corruptors in a pull, sometimes up to 4, means I can barely stand still due to how many green balls are spawning all around. Some casters can manage that relatively OK, others not so much. Meanwhile as a melee while you do still have to keep moving to avoid them, they’re not really stopping you from hitting something and the pull is so large you have a lot of space to play with that still results in being in range of something.
The trash at the start of HoI is similar, there’s the tank frontals to watch out for as melee but the geomancer leaps are a ranged mechanic and when you’re doing a pull with 5 geomancers things get very hectic outside of melee.
Same with melee. With good tanks, you see melee having issues a lot less. Also healers. With good tanks, healers have issues a lot less.
Then here’s a suggestion. If you’re so unhappy playing melee this season, why don’t you play ranged instead? If you really do think ranged have it so much easier, and you’re not just here to whine, that would be the natural thing for you to do. That you haven’t chosen to do that implies that you’re actually enjoying whining.
So like the more you pull the more disruptive the ranged mechanics become whereas melee mechanics tend to be a certain level of disruptive regardless of pull size, I can agree with that. and yeah those nokhud packs can be pretty hectic for ranged, I usually pug so we usually pull 2 packs at most in that area, sometimes I have to fetch my ghost tho and I get blocked off by balls or the giant swirly when I try to get back in, but yeah those mechanics affect caster-heavy ranged alot more.
as for HOI the funny thing is that when the tank tanks the mobs close to the edge of the circle RoP becomes really powerful because you can actually knock them up for a long time and prevent any of the seismic slams from going off. I usually try to help my ranged dps/healer in any way I can in that pull, the weird thing about the frontals there is that they’re not exactly on top of the tank, the frontals are cast on the tank position but then the mob keeps doing the frontal for a few seconds so you actually have to actively look at what the mobs are doing which does make it pretty hectic for melee the more you pull. Some of the first pulls in HOI are so chaotic because I’m trying to get in melee range to interrupt the dangerous casts that can go off while avoiding frontals etc. It’s not a super free pull for melee especially when several packs are pulled.
I really enjoy playing WW, but rerolling is not a solution to the problem I see. I think this season is objectively more unfriendly towards melee and I wanted to discuss that, to hopefully get blizzard’s attention or to spark some community discussion around this topic. ‘‘Just reroll if you don’t like it’’ isn’t a satisfying decision in my opinion. I also think there is too much responsibility on the tank right now, I was watching the echo team play keys the other night and even there aggro was a real factor in the way they did pulls and held damage, and even then I saw gingi die a couple of times due to ripping aggro.
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in terms of aggro i think something is bugged. i saw a assa rogue giving the tank 2 times trinks in 1 minute and still died to auto attacks in a +18 HoI. something must be bugged how tanks can lose aggro 1 minute into a pull
during BFA a friend of mine played elemental shaman until he switched to enhancer for ny’alotha patch, since the raid needed an enhancer
he complained that he has to dodge so much stuff and that melee is so much harder than ranged.
i only told him “welcome to my world”. i dont remember legion m+. that is just too long away, but i clearly remember my friend saying this during BFA.
in my brain it was never any different. melee always had a harder time in m+.
raid seemed always a mixed bag. some raids were more melee friendly. some were more ranged friendly. but m+? nope.
nagura said once: (she is a boomkin player) “playing ranged DPS is easy mode in m+. the hardest is prolly heal”.
dont remember when she said it. if it was at the end shadowlands or the start of this expac. but she said it. she should be a well known player.
so for 3 xpac it is melee hell in m+.
Meanwhile, one of my guildies who has only ever played melee tried to gear a mage and gave it up because “I keep getting interrupted and silenced ALL THE TIME, this is too difficult”.