I indeed do, but you are getting it wrong. I am not asking for more nerfs or something like that, I am asking Blizz to keep Rogue where it is. Just not in the meta! And if it is still played on tournaments, to decrease their value even more.
Same for Mage, especially Frost. But here I am clearly asking for nerfs because they are without a doubt somewhere in S- to A+ tier.
I don’t think that either, but this would be a case where there is no trinkets left and/or no defensives and no peel. That’s the way it’s always been as far as I can remember.
I do not hanker back to shadowy duel swap kills earlier this expansion or in Shadowlands. But I believe there is a healthy middle ground to be found there.
Alone? Probably not. I’m not sure if that’s a bad thing. This was the case in MoP and WoD too. But in a team? Absolutely.
But that goes for a whole lot of other classes. I know for example that unless all the stars align, there is no way in hell I will be able to take down an unholy DK as a shadow priest for one. Equally an arms warrior is going to have a very bad time against any tank specialization (save for maybe prot pala) or frost mage, as it historically has.
Rogues can most certainly threaten most specs in the game on their own- If they are hardcountered by a few specs, then that is fine. Always been this way.
And I am asking for all 12 classes and the 36 specs to be balanced versus each other.
Objectively speaking, my request is better, because I don’t favor based on personal taste.
You are, however, continuing to push your own ego on these forums, as the narcissist you are.
I want classes to stick to their core class fantasy. Let us take a look at the class fantasy description of the Rogue on the World of Warcraft class page:
The core fantasy of the rogue is to be a master of the 1v1 fight, to be able to kill the target they prey on, and to escape when the situation goes south. It is literally written by Blizzard themselves.
What I am saying is that the Rogue is currently not true to its core fantasy. And it is fine that you don’t like rogues, but I personally don’t like Demon Hunters, but it would be silly for me to hunt these forums with a personal agenda of killing the Demon Hunter just because I don’t like the class. The Demon Hunter is true to its class fantasy, and I am happy for the players who enjoy that class for what it is, despite me hating them in PvP 
There it is.
So it’s not that Rogue is weak, it’s that it can’t kill all classes in an 1v1.
This has historically been the most common reason why rogues complained about their state in pvp. All the while having tongue-in-cheek told most other specs and classes (e.g. Arms warriors) that the game isn’t balanced around 1v1- When conveniently they happen to play the class that historically, has been one of the best ones at that task.
This cognitive dissonance aside, it’s strange to me that rogues have this apparent entitlement for this status as a class- When, none of the descriptions even state that they are supposed to always win or be the best.
Anyway, as it turns out, rogues are actually perfectly fine as a class (as said), their players simply can’t do the “moves” and “plays”, as they were able to the last 3 expansions, now that most classes have their full toolkits back.
No, this was an assumption you added.
Originally WoW followed the DnD triangular balance between Rogue-Mage-Warrior where a Rogue countered mage that countered warrior that countered rogue. But as you probably know, this philosophy is no longer followed, especially not with how much warrior has become a caster-counter.
It is fine that there are some classes that rogue is weak to in the 1v1, which could for instance be the warrior, as it used to be. However, the class fantasy of the rogue is to be good at killing targets that moved away from the herd. This is because WoW used to be a MMORPG, where classes filled roles. Warriors, for instance, were classically speaking good at being a frontline brawler in BG group fights. A rogue is meant to not be strong in group fights, but instead be good at praying on targets and finding weak spots in the group. All parts are necessary for this RPG to have strategic play and to have class differentiation. They are also good at making anti-zerg group strategies valid, because zerg groups in AB cannot zerg if opponent team have classes that can kill solo flag defenders.
Sure you can remove rogue’s ability to fill this role, but by doing so you will (1) boost groups in BGs and favor zerg groups with few defenders and (2) generally boost AoE and cleave classes.
This game is not meant to be balanced 1v1, but it is meant to be balanced around smart play and strategic counterplay. In the ideal balance, a rogue is weak to 1v2 (as it should be) and as such, you can easily counter it by just having friends near you. If you want to balance rogue’s for 1v1 play, you will have to slowly turn it into a warrior, or you will have to decide that this specific class should not exist, for which either are in my opinion not ideal.
Cognitive dissonance aside for you, indeed, there is no reason for a class to stalk, prey, hide in the shadows, jump out in surprise to assassinate, if they 70% of the time just straight up die from that. Time spent in stealth is time you are not applying pressure to the opponent, or dealing damage, or doing other game relevant tasks. There has to be a benefit to stealthing around and waiting for a good time to strike, which is not based on just kill-stealing almost-dead targets.
Aside from that, winning the 1v1 fight should ofcourse be about skills for the Rogue. Rogue should have a small advantage in the 1v1 to offset the disadvantage in group fights, and the reduced AoE and cleave abilities. Its in the class fantasy to do so.
It is not. SkillCapped have recently dropped them significantly in their tier lists. People have stopped playing them to the point where they are one of the lowest played melee classes on the ladder. Plenty of people have provided factual data about the current situation of the rogue here: Can you nerf these classes please?, and streamers talk openly about the issues with the rogue (when they dont rant about ret paladins).
So you might feel like the rogue class is fine now, but the data clearly shows otherwise.
Wrong, rogues aren’t ninjas or ma champions. That class is called windwalker monk.
A rogue is nothing more than a pickpocket who is supposed to get away when discovered. He should be able to take out lightly armored classes, but certainly not be a champion in 1v1 fights! To be fair, when hitting a Warrior he shouldn’t feel more than a tickle.
In 3v3 arena, rogues shouldn’t be able to hurt anyone serious, they are not more than a stun bot for their mates. The more damage a rogue does, the less his stuns should last.
I have had enough of your gaslighting and manipulation, in the egoistic pursuit of getting the rogue class destroyed. I know you have a memory span of a goldfish, but please reread below. And then after that, reread it one more time, then ask yourself if you read it enough times to understand what it says:
Please tell me if you need help understanding English. It can be hard if it is not your first language.
To be fair both of you seem to rather agree, yet you manage to argue against each other.
Yes, Rogue should be strong in 1v1, stronger, in fact, that most opponents, and it should also be weaker in extended fights, but that does not mean it should kill alone 100-0 in a stun.
In a real 1v1 the fight will go longer than the stun. Vanish, Blind, Gouge, some running away, Evasion, etc. So Rogues clearly don’t have to OHKO in one single stun to be good at what their lore dictates.
This 1v1 strength, in arena, should translate to advantage whenever you isolate someone, or ability to isolate someone to gain a team advantage. Not the ability to walk up to someone and solokill him for the sake of lore.
This guy gets it.
Then why do you always talk to me? And I don’t want rogue to be destroyed, C tier is perfectly fine after decades of being S tier.
Then read the other pages as well and you might get why it has to conflict with other class descriptions.
SkillCapped have stated that B tier is considered the mean. Per definition, anything below B tier needs to be buffed. I reply to you because you spend all your time on this forum infiltrating posts about rogue’s trying to convince everyone that rogue’s are fine now and should not be adjusted, despite countless people providing tons of external data from many different sources, that proves the rogue class currently has issues.
The only reason you would spend so much time doing that, is because you have a selfish agenda. And I will fight that every hour of the day, for the pursuit of truth.
Then there is still space to drop that 
class even further.
And you don’t by asking rogues to be good, even though they have been great to broken in the past decades? Lmao!
And I am happy you write like this, because it makes it obvious to everyone else why you are not to be trusted with a single word you write.
My opinion can’t be trusted? Well, it’s my opinion, I swear its a honest and not a fake one! 
Something weird is going on in your head!
Then keep your opinion to yourself. Why are you here? What do you gain from infiltrating all these rogue posts where rogues discuss the problems we have with the class, and where we provide data to back up our claims?
I dont know if you are aware of it, but we live in the 21th century, where the scientific methodology is the leading philosophy of truth, and where data science with the use of statistical quantitative methodologies are considered the best way to objectively find answers.
What you provide has no use, unless you can back it up with data.
And to understand how modern science work, I recommend Karl Popper’s book “The logic of scientific Discoveries”.
No.
This was written by you:
And has been by many-a-rogue before.
You say this while conveniently forgetting to mention that Rogue has had, for the longest of time in the history of this game, no hard counters. As hasn’t RMX, which is why where comps and come and go in AWC, RMP was always there since BC all the way to these days. Didn’t win a whole lot of times, but it was always up there.
Why couldn’t it be Rogue, though? It’s awfully convenient it’s always supposed to be all the other classes, but not the rogue.
Which, if we take the intent by face value, would mean that rogue would be extremely weak in any kind of team based pvp- Which, arena certainly is., in close quarters. You won’t get an 1v1 situation these days outside of world pvp encounters and maybe duels.
Well, Vanilla is right there if that’s the way to go. This is modern game, however.
I do not disagree that classes have different roles in group content and settings, but every class should be able to take part and perform all the same. It’s good that warriors are no longer the only frontline class or tank for dungeons, for instance.
Seeing as this game centers around teamplay and group content, if we follow that argument to the end, then Rogue shouldn’t even exist in the game as a class- But, of course it does.
I don’t agree with that.
MoP was historically the expansion where each and every class had the most of everything- Compare DF arms warrior to MoP one, and the MoP one is still miles better.
And yet, The last two seasons of MoP were and are to this date the best seasons of arena and pvp gameplay this game has ever enjoyed. And I think it’s because while everyone had an answer for most situations, you had to use them in right order and at right times for them to be effective.
The strategic gameplay example can also lead down to some very degenerate design paths. Take BC with hunter wyvern sting for example, or Legion separation anxiety. Nobody can deny that those abilities and gameplay choices were very unique to hunters at the time, but they were also degenerate for the whole game, which is why they are no longer around.
Ultimately, yes. But as some have already said in this game, if they have a choice between racing with damage versus racing with cc (sitting in CC whole game), at least in the former they get to play the game.
I’m not saying it is the right way to do things, but this is the path Blizzard has chosen, with the upcoming CC changes and burst reductions. And this isn’t the first time Blizzard has done it either, it tends to fluctuate.
And yet, you bring up an 1v1 scenario as a point of balance.
Perhaps all classes should be based around that. But that’s asides the point.
Then how come this is not the first time Rogue has been down this path? If it doesn’t work, why has it worked just fine before?
You remember very well from WoD and MoP that rogue had nowhere near the same killing power as what it did for example in shadowlands. Or early DF, doesn’t matter. Pick any expansion, whether it’s vial of Shadows from Cata or vanilla or w/e.
And yet, the class thrived. Because rogue still had the fantasy of being able to ambush and set up kills with the CC, which is actually the thing that makes rogue stand out from the other classes, not the damage. And it did still back then have an above higher burst damage compared to all the other classes, it’s just that all the other classes also had more defensives to mitigate those things.
A rogue can still exist as a class even if it isn’t an 1v1 godclass. And it has, several times across multiple expansions and patches. So the argument that if a rogue isn’t capable of fulfilling that fantasy it has to transform into something it isn’t, that claim is false.
Stealth doesn’t exist as a mean of guaranteeing you a kill. It guarantees you get to make the first move.
True, but it is also a state where you can recuperate and plan out your next move in the relative safety of being hidden in plain sight. Most classes do not get that luxury.
There is. You get to choose the first move and isolate targets.
RIght, so let’s read over those class descriptions again and see what they say:
The first three make no mention or gives a guarantee whatsoever that if you make the first move, you will win by default.
The last, class description, could have some merit to it until you realize all the other class descriptions have equally boastful claims of what they can do.
Fury warrior description for example tells that you can carve your opponents to pieces- And yet as awesome as that would be, I haven’t seen to this date the game allowing fury warriors to dismember their foes.
Skill capped also told back in the day when 8.4 was around that warlocks were A tier and not S++ tier despite basically owning the whole season to themselves.
Brewzin plays one of the least effective and off meta specs in pvp: Brewmaster, and yet he plays that said spec so well he was not only 3,4k rated with it (About 1,2 k rating above the next brewmaster main) but he was also in AWC.
So if a c tier spec (no less a tank, too) can do it, so can a rogue.
A thing that happens to just about every single spec from time to time. Ask Enha shamans how are they doing. Or Frost DK’s.
And the said streamers also said back when the said class/Spec was broken that it was infact balanced. Just as the ret paladins are currently saying.
Look I get you, it sucks. It’s not the top dog, and maybe won’t be for some time in the future because SS and the damage/cc profile going into the future does not favour big setups the same way SL did.
But it’s not hopeless, nor is it bad.
Well I know they are fine because you can to this date see them in arena- Granted usually they are with a ret pala or a demo lock or arms warrior. They’re not the movie stars of this expansion, but they still exist.
Nothing wrong about that.
Okay, so who the heck are you random plep to dare to tell me if I am allowed to share my opinion in this forum or not, when you even dare yourself to share yours?!
I get that you play rogue and want the class to be good. I don’t play rogue and think that their general design is broken, so I want them to be average at best. Especially because they have been god tier for decades now!
Cool with that? Great! Not? I don’t care either!
If you don’t like what I write, use the ignore function or quit the forum. You are not in a position to tell anyone if they can share their opinion or not!!! On the opposite, you should be thankfully that you are even allowed to post in the PvP forum!
You have no clue about modern science or logic, you proved that multiple times here!
You want data, here you get some data.
2 rogues in the top 5 eu 3v3 ladder. 10 rogues in the top 100 eu shuffle ladder and top 100 3v3 ladder.
I guess they are doing quite good so far in this season, no matter what skill capped has to say about it.
I am here discussing my class in a class relevant post. It is like someone selling apples and people being interested in apples showing up. You then decide to jump in and tell everyone why buying apples are bad. You have no business here, and you spread negativity.
And, for the matter of fact, I have previously provided to you plenty of external sources to back up my claims, thus they are no longer opinions, they are data analysis results. Learn the difference.
You don’t have the knowledge, nor the credentials to know that. And I can tell you with references, sources to literature exactly why the methodology I am providing is exactly within line of modern scientific research standards.
things i never thought id read in a game forum