why does rog get a bubble xD
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This has historically always been the weakness of rogues, aside from combat/outlaw sometimes being more on the tanky side. This should remain so.
I donât disagree with you that the current game design will lead to degenerate abilities like the new rog pvp talent, but I do not agree at all that it is a good addition.
I agree with you. But we have a conflict now; the recent changes to pvp trinkets and pvp in general was to lower burst and slow the meta down. So this means that one of three solutions must be true;
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- Old burst classes like rogue needs higher sustained dmg to be relevant.
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- Rogue is allowed to be the only burst class, then Blizzard needs to communicate with the community that rogue is intended to be the outlier.
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- Blizzard deliberately wants to make rogue irrelevant in pvp.
Rogue has always been more on the bursty side of damage, save for outlaw (MoP, WoD, SL) and occasionally Assa. Even during dampening metas like BFA, which DF is still a faraway thing from.
Also Rogue and Mage will always bounce back-. They have every single time across every single expansion, and DF wonât be any different either.
I think rogues are where they should be atm. They are still one of the ew classes that can reliably swap to a completely 100% target without a trinket in the middle of a fight and 100-0 them in a stun.
But equally, they are susceptible to being trained and focused because they lack the ability to stay in the fight, which is not unique to them (hunters and most casters come to mind).
If Ret, arms, BM, Ele and Demo are brought to the same level, it can be a very good S2.
There is. But there are a lot of things that go through Evasion (like Storm Bolt), plus you can be in the back.
It just empowers Cloak to also cleanse bleeds and grant a short Evasion, a good defensive talent, but not an âundispellable bubbleâ as someone said.
Right now Assassination is really underperforming defensively. Sub has 2x Vanish and some healing, Outlaw has more healing and CDR on almost everything, so Assa gets this new talents to not be one of the easiest kills in the game. Mostly this talent gives an answer to other Assa Rogues and to Ferals once per two minutes, because right now if a Feral stuns you and bleeds you, even if you trinket cloak evasion vanish (keyboard smash) on 75%, you die to the bleeds anyway.
Itâs a strong talent. Itâs not making the spec broken or anything though.
Right now if you swap to a target that really is 100%, not DoTs etc, you donât 100-0 anything at all in the stun. There is a huge lack of damage to do that on top of the fact that the stun lasts for 5.1s. You hace exactly 5 globals. There isnât a combination of 5 globals that deals 400k damage on a fresh target.
That being said, while Rogues should be bursty I donât think they should necessarily have the ability to âkill someone 100 to 0 completely alone just like thatâ. This is what leads to cheesing with Duel, or to making coordinated plah too strong. Rogues should be able to setup a coordinated 100-0 with their team, while dealing a lot of the damage themselves, but never alone. In general anything that just presses tab on a fresh target, and kills in 4 seconds isnât really good design. The problem right now is that several specs can do that. WW can, Arms can, Ret can. It is a bit lame.
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Thanks for sharing the history of rogues. I have mained a rogue since 2007 so I am aware of their history and class fantasy.
I generally do not think rogues are where they should be atm. Rogues cant kill over half the classes in pvp anymore. We might be good as supportive CC in coordinated 3v3, but leaving us where we are now makes Blizzard have two conflicting philosophies;
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- All classes should deal an equal amount of damage, regardless of what class it is, and regardless of how much of a pure or hybrid class it is, or how much CC it brings.
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- Rogues are fine not having equal amount of damage because they bring so much other stuff.
You see, if we agree on (1) then we need to revisit A LOT of the other current top tier dps choices, that surely ALSO bring a lot of other stuff. If we are not doing that, then we MUST accept (2) and thus rogue needs a damage increase in one way or another.
And yes, this is the current situation, rogue is one of the least played dps choices on the ladder as we speak, not to mention SkillCapped that recently dropped rogue significantly on their tier lists, saying exactly the only reason they did not fall further was because of the control they can bring to the arena team.
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I indeed do, but you are getting it wrong. I am not asking for more nerfs or something like that, I am asking Blizz to keep Rogue where it is. Just not in the meta! And if it is still played on tournaments, to decrease their value even more.
Same for Mage, especially Frost. But here I am clearly asking for nerfs because they are without a doubt somewhere in S- to A+ tier.
I donât think that either, but this would be a case where there is no trinkets left and/or no defensives and no peel. Thatâs the way itâs always been as far as I can remember.
I do not hanker back to shadowy duel swap kills earlier this expansion or in Shadowlands. But I believe there is a healthy middle ground to be found there.
Alone? Probably not. Iâm not sure if thatâs a bad thing. This was the case in MoP and WoD too. But in a team? Absolutely.
But that goes for a whole lot of other classes. I know for example that unless all the stars align, there is no way in hell I will be able to take down an unholy DK as a shadow priest for one. Equally an arms warrior is going to have a very bad time against any tank specialization (save for maybe prot pala) or frost mage, as it historically has.
Rogues can most certainly threaten most specs in the game on their own- If they are hardcountered by a few specs, then that is fine. Always been this way.
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And I am asking for all 12 classes and the 36 specs to be balanced versus each other.
Objectively speaking, my request is better, because I donât favor based on personal taste.
You are, however, continuing to push your own ego on these forums, as the narcissist you are.
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I want classes to stick to their core class fantasy. Let us take a look at the class fantasy description of the Rogue on the World of Warcraft class page:
- Assassination: A deadly master of poisons who dispatches victims with vicious dagger strikes.
- Subtlety: A dark stalker who leaps from the shadows to ambush their unsuspecting prey.
- Outlaw: A ruthless fugitive who uses agility and guile to stand toe-to-toe with enemies.
- Rogue: Lethal assassins and masters of stealth, they will approach their marks from behind, piercing a vital organ and vanishing into the shadows before the victim hits the ground.
The core fantasy of the rogue is to be a master of the 1v1 fight, to be able to kill the target they prey on, and to escape when the situation goes south. It is literally written by Blizzard themselves.
What I am saying is that the Rogue is currently not true to its core fantasy. And it is fine that you donât like rogues, but I personally donât like Demon Hunters, but it would be silly for me to hunt these forums with a personal agenda of killing the Demon Hunter just because I donât like the class. The Demon Hunter is true to its class fantasy, and I am happy for the players who enjoy that class for what it is, despite me hating them in PvP 
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There it is.
So itâs not that Rogue is weak, itâs that it canât kill all classes in an 1v1.
This has historically been the most common reason why rogues complained about their state in pvp. All the while having tongue-in-cheek told most other specs and classes (e.g. Arms warriors) that the game isnât balanced around 1v1- When conveniently they happen to play the class that historically, has been one of the best ones at that task.
This cognitive dissonance aside, itâs strange to me that rogues have this apparent entitlement for this status as a class- When, none of the descriptions even state that they are supposed to always win or be the best.
Anyway, as it turns out, rogues are actually perfectly fine as a class (as said), their players simply canât do the âmovesâ and âplaysâ, as they were able to the last 3 expansions, now that most classes have their full toolkits back.
No, this was an assumption you added.
Originally WoW followed the DnD triangular balance between Rogue-Mage-Warrior where a Rogue countered mage that countered warrior that countered rogue. But as you probably know, this philosophy is no longer followed, especially not with how much warrior has become a caster-counter.
It is fine that there are some classes that rogue is weak to in the 1v1, which could for instance be the warrior, as it used to be. However, the class fantasy of the rogue is to be good at killing targets that moved away from the herd. This is because WoW used to be a MMORPG, where classes filled roles. Warriors, for instance, were classically speaking good at being a frontline brawler in BG group fights. A rogue is meant to not be strong in group fights, but instead be good at praying on targets and finding weak spots in the group. All parts are necessary for this RPG to have strategic play and to have class differentiation. They are also good at making anti-zerg group strategies valid, because zerg groups in AB cannot zerg if opponent team have classes that can kill solo flag defenders.
Sure you can remove rogueâs ability to fill this role, but by doing so you will (1) boost groups in BGs and favor zerg groups with few defenders and (2) generally boost AoE and cleave classes.
This game is not meant to be balanced 1v1, but it is meant to be balanced around smart play and strategic counterplay. In the ideal balance, a rogue is weak to 1v2 (as it should be) and as such, you can easily counter it by just having friends near you. If you want to balance rogueâs for 1v1 play, you will have to slowly turn it into a warrior, or you will have to decide that this specific class should not exist, for which either are in my opinion not ideal.
Cognitive dissonance aside for you, indeed, there is no reason for a class to stalk, prey, hide in the shadows, jump out in surprise to assassinate, if they 70% of the time just straight up die from that. Time spent in stealth is time you are not applying pressure to the opponent, or dealing damage, or doing other game relevant tasks. There has to be a benefit to stealthing around and waiting for a good time to strike, which is not based on just kill-stealing almost-dead targets.
Aside from that, winning the 1v1 fight should ofcourse be about skills for the Rogue. Rogue should have a small advantage in the 1v1 to offset the disadvantage in group fights, and the reduced AoE and cleave abilities. Its in the class fantasy to do so.
It is not. SkillCapped have recently dropped them significantly in their tier lists. People have stopped playing them to the point where they are one of the lowest played melee classes on the ladder. Plenty of people have provided factual data about the current situation of the rogue here: Can you nerf these classes please?, and streamers talk openly about the issues with the rogue (when they dont rant about ret paladins).
So you might feel like the rogue class is fine now, but the data clearly shows otherwise.
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Wrong, rogues arenât ninjas or ma champions. That class is called windwalker monk.
A rogue is nothing more than a pickpocket who is supposed to get away when discovered. He should be able to take out lightly armored classes, but certainly not be a champion in 1v1 fights! To be fair, when hitting a Warrior he shouldnât feel more than a tickle.
In 3v3 arena, rogues shouldnât be able to hurt anyone serious, they are not more than a stun bot for their mates. The more damage a rogue does, the less his stuns should last.
I have had enough of your gaslighting and manipulation, in the egoistic pursuit of getting the rogue class destroyed. I know you have a memory span of a goldfish, but please reread below. And then after that, reread it one more time, then ask yourself if you read it enough times to understand what it says:
Please tell me if you need help understanding English. It can be hard if it is not your first language.
To be fair both of you seem to rather agree, yet you manage to argue against each other.
Yes, Rogue should be strong in 1v1, stronger, in fact, that most opponents, and it should also be weaker in extended fights, but that does not mean it should kill alone 100-0 in a stun.
In a real 1v1 the fight will go longer than the stun. Vanish, Blind, Gouge, some running away, Evasion, etc. So Rogues clearly donât have to OHKO in one single stun to be good at what their lore dictates.
This 1v1 strength, in arena, should translate to advantage whenever you isolate someone, or ability to isolate someone to gain a team advantage. Not the ability to walk up to someone and solokill him for the sake of lore.
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This guy gets it.
Then why do you always talk to me? And I donât want rogue to be destroyed, C tier is perfectly fine after decades of being S tier.
Then read the other pages as well and you might get why it has to conflict with other class descriptions.
SkillCapped have stated that B tier is considered the mean. Per definition, anything below B tier needs to be buffed. I reply to you because you spend all your time on this forum infiltrating posts about rogueâs trying to convince everyone that rogueâs are fine now and should not be adjusted, despite countless people providing tons of external data from many different sources, that proves the rogue class currently has issues.
The only reason you would spend so much time doing that, is because you have a selfish agenda. And I will fight that every hour of the day, for the pursuit of truth.
Then there is still space to drop that 
class even further.
And you donât by asking rogues to be good, even though they have been great to broken in the past decades? Lmao!
And I am happy you write like this, because it makes it obvious to everyone else why you are not to be trusted with a single word you write.
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