My opinion can’t be trusted? Well, it’s my opinion, I swear its a honest and not a fake one! 
Something weird is going on in your head!
Then keep your opinion to yourself. Why are you here? What do you gain from infiltrating all these rogue posts where rogues discuss the problems we have with the class, and where we provide data to back up our claims?
I dont know if you are aware of it, but we live in the 21th century, where the scientific methodology is the leading philosophy of truth, and where data science with the use of statistical quantitative methodologies are considered the best way to objectively find answers.
What you provide has no use, unless you can back it up with data.
And to understand how modern science work, I recommend Karl Popper’s book “The logic of scientific Discoveries”.
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No.
This was written by you:
And has been by many-a-rogue before.
You say this while conveniently forgetting to mention that Rogue has had, for the longest of time in the history of this game, no hard counters. As hasn’t RMX, which is why where comps and come and go in AWC, RMP was always there since BC all the way to these days. Didn’t win a whole lot of times, but it was always up there.
Why couldn’t it be Rogue, though? It’s awfully convenient it’s always supposed to be all the other classes, but not the rogue.
Which, if we take the intent by face value, would mean that rogue would be extremely weak in any kind of team based pvp- Which, arena certainly is., in close quarters. You won’t get an 1v1 situation these days outside of world pvp encounters and maybe duels.
Well, Vanilla is right there if that’s the way to go. This is modern game, however.
I do not disagree that classes have different roles in group content and settings, but every class should be able to take part and perform all the same. It’s good that warriors are no longer the only frontline class or tank for dungeons, for instance.
Seeing as this game centers around teamplay and group content, if we follow that argument to the end, then Rogue shouldn’t even exist in the game as a class- But, of course it does.
I don’t agree with that.
MoP was historically the expansion where each and every class had the most of everything- Compare DF arms warrior to MoP one, and the MoP one is still miles better.
And yet, The last two seasons of MoP were and are to this date the best seasons of arena and pvp gameplay this game has ever enjoyed. And I think it’s because while everyone had an answer for most situations, you had to use them in right order and at right times for them to be effective.
The strategic gameplay example can also lead down to some very degenerate design paths. Take BC with hunter wyvern sting for example, or Legion separation anxiety. Nobody can deny that those abilities and gameplay choices were very unique to hunters at the time, but they were also degenerate for the whole game, which is why they are no longer around.
Ultimately, yes. But as some have already said in this game, if they have a choice between racing with damage versus racing with cc (sitting in CC whole game), at least in the former they get to play the game.
I’m not saying it is the right way to do things, but this is the path Blizzard has chosen, with the upcoming CC changes and burst reductions. And this isn’t the first time Blizzard has done it either, it tends to fluctuate.
And yet, you bring up an 1v1 scenario as a point of balance.
Perhaps all classes should be based around that. But that’s asides the point.
Then how come this is not the first time Rogue has been down this path? If it doesn’t work, why has it worked just fine before?
You remember very well from WoD and MoP that rogue had nowhere near the same killing power as what it did for example in shadowlands. Or early DF, doesn’t matter. Pick any expansion, whether it’s vial of Shadows from Cata or vanilla or w/e.
And yet, the class thrived. Because rogue still had the fantasy of being able to ambush and set up kills with the CC, which is actually the thing that makes rogue stand out from the other classes, not the damage. And it did still back then have an above higher burst damage compared to all the other classes, it’s just that all the other classes also had more defensives to mitigate those things.
A rogue can still exist as a class even if it isn’t an 1v1 godclass. And it has, several times across multiple expansions and patches. So the argument that if a rogue isn’t capable of fulfilling that fantasy it has to transform into something it isn’t, that claim is false.
Stealth doesn’t exist as a mean of guaranteeing you a kill. It guarantees you get to make the first move.
True, but it is also a state where you can recuperate and plan out your next move in the relative safety of being hidden in plain sight. Most classes do not get that luxury.
There is. You get to choose the first move and isolate targets.
RIght, so let’s read over those class descriptions again and see what they say:
The first three make no mention or gives a guarantee whatsoever that if you make the first move, you will win by default.
The last, class description, could have some merit to it until you realize all the other class descriptions have equally boastful claims of what they can do.
Fury warrior description for example tells that you can carve your opponents to pieces- And yet as awesome as that would be, I haven’t seen to this date the game allowing fury warriors to dismember their foes.
Skill capped also told back in the day when 8.4 was around that warlocks were A tier and not S++ tier despite basically owning the whole season to themselves.
Brewzin plays one of the least effective and off meta specs in pvp: Brewmaster, and yet he plays that said spec so well he was not only 3,4k rated with it (About 1,2 k rating above the next brewmaster main) but he was also in AWC.
So if a c tier spec (no less a tank, too) can do it, so can a rogue.
A thing that happens to just about every single spec from time to time. Ask Enha shamans how are they doing. Or Frost DK’s.
And the said streamers also said back when the said class/Spec was broken that it was infact balanced. Just as the ret paladins are currently saying.
Look I get you, it sucks. It’s not the top dog, and maybe won’t be for some time in the future because SS and the damage/cc profile going into the future does not favour big setups the same way SL did.
But it’s not hopeless, nor is it bad.
Well I know they are fine because you can to this date see them in arena- Granted usually they are with a ret pala or a demo lock or arms warrior. They’re not the movie stars of this expansion, but they still exist.
Nothing wrong about that.
Okay, so who the heck are you random plep to dare to tell me if I am allowed to share my opinion in this forum or not, when you even dare yourself to share yours?!
I get that you play rogue and want the class to be good. I don’t play rogue and think that their general design is broken, so I want them to be average at best. Especially because they have been god tier for decades now!
Cool with that? Great! Not? I don’t care either!
If you don’t like what I write, use the ignore function or quit the forum. You are not in a position to tell anyone if they can share their opinion or not!!! On the opposite, you should be thankfully that you are even allowed to post in the PvP forum!
You have no clue about modern science or logic, you proved that multiple times here!
You want data, here you get some data.
2 rogues in the top 5 eu 3v3 ladder. 10 rogues in the top 100 eu shuffle ladder and top 100 3v3 ladder.
I guess they are doing quite good so far in this season, no matter what skill capped has to say about it.
I am here discussing my class in a class relevant post. It is like someone selling apples and people being interested in apples showing up. You then decide to jump in and tell everyone why buying apples are bad. You have no business here, and you spread negativity.
And, for the matter of fact, I have previously provided to you plenty of external sources to back up my claims, thus they are no longer opinions, they are data analysis results. Learn the difference.
You don’t have the knowledge, nor the credentials to know that. And I can tell you with references, sources to literature exactly why the methodology I am providing is exactly within line of modern scientific research standards.
things i never thought id read in a game forum
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Reread it again please, my friend. To my knowledge, nowhere in this sentence does it state that I want rogues to beat all classes 1v1.
But that being said, You and I are mostly in agreement and somehow are currently discussing very small misunderstandings in our sentences. I think we can continue this dance, but I am fairly certain we agree at the bottom line.
A third party stated it best:
And I could dissect your long reply and find every little detail as to why we are not exactly agreeing, but If you can agree with what Shadenox said, then you and I are on equal ground.
How else would you interpret “being a master of the 1v1 fight and being able to kill the target they prey on”.
Which one is it? Is it a normal class that just deals with situations by ambushing people rather than running fae-first to them or casting spells from a distance, or is it an 1v1 god class
We do agree on most things, but I also want to point out something where I fundamentally disagree with both you and Shadenox, and as I have explained before, this is where I think where the animosity toward rogues asking to be stronger comes from, such as in the responses from Lillydot:
See, the reason why everybody who has had to ever face a rogue throughout the years, be it in arena or world pvp or wherever gets their feathers rustled every single time rogues ask for their class to get buffs or be stronger is because it does not come from a place of need. It comes from a place of entitlement.
Because apparently at the dawn of WoW Rogues were given this god-given right that they should be the strongest or in average stronger in 1v1 fights than others, simply because thats the class they play.
As explained in the Frost DK, enhancement shaman and Brewmaster monk cases, you can succeed perfectly well with a far weaker class than a rogue at the moment, and yet nothing is being done to these specs that are all arguably in a far worse state than the rogue class as a whole is. In fact Brewmaster’s going to disappear from the ladder in a month because incendiary breath is removed.
But, it doesn’t matter because apparently Rogue’s god given right is to be at the S tier, always and forever. I guess.
I did write that with a tongue in cheek, but the message comes across anyway clearly enough.
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I apologize if you think I want rogue to be as it is from a sense of entitlement. That is not the case at all. And the reason I discuss rogue is not because I do not care about the other classes that are in a bad place, it is because I only want to speak about what I have knowledge about. I do not play monk, DK or shaman, and would therefore not be able to provide valuable information to such a discussion. But they ARE important!
I Also do not want rogue to be S tier. When Assa’s 4 set bonus was OP, I made a post on this forum asking to nerf the 4-set bonus but not gut the core function of the class at the same time. I am also in favor of increasing the CD of kidney shot to limit our ability to continue to stun in longer fights. It is fine as a part of our opener, and core to the fantasy of praying and stalking, but the CD is too low currently, where we can effectively spam it.
I want all classes to follow their class fantasy. I want paladins to be about healing and protecting, but have less damage than a warrior. I want mages to have high damage but low survivability, as they cast magic in their thin linen robes. I want feral druids to have all the sustain and survivability that rogues lack, but in turn have less damage. I never wanted rogue to have Crimson Vial as a baseline heal, I much better liked it when we had to blind at the right time to get our bandage going, because people could counterplay us by interrupting the bandage healing. I want rogue to be seriously weak in group fights, but have a strength in 1v1 fights, because otherwise the class fantasy of stealthing, seeking, praying and ambushing does not make sense. A lion does not stalk the bear, it stalks the gazelle. And part of the stalking strategy is to get the gazelle away from the herd.
Part of the problem currently is that the bears and the gazelle are not archetypes such as brawlers (bears) or casters (gazelles) (arbitrary examples, not necessarily as it should be), but rather bears are the top tier classes (played most often) and gazelles are the classes tiers below rogue. This has no strategy to it, no fun, other than rogues being able to play with the lesser fortunate classes. So I want rogue’s to have clear targets to pray and stalk, that are coherent with the game design. If we are good at killing cloth and leather targets, fine, then let us be weak to mail and plate, but atleast it is a decision to make us good at stalking and praying something.
But lets also look at it from game mechanic point of view. What purpose does stealth play have if it does not give an advantage? The opener is not an advantage, its a single global headstart. The rogue is squishy, so we are easily bullied and killed in group fights, so we cant be there. We can try and capture flags in BGs, but if the majority of classes win all 1v1 fights, then the opponent team can just place a single defender on each flag, and easily call out incoming attacks since stealth no longer becomes a viable strategy. Effectively, without the 1v1 advantage (advantage as in not being able to kill all classes with 100% certainty, but having a higher probability of winning in 1v1 given equal skill) stealth provides nothing but an ability to hide, and from there the Rogue class fantasy is no longer to pray or to stalk, then it becomes to hide in fear. Again, one can make such a change to a core class of World of Warcraft, but it is ultimately changing a fundamental core part of the original game philosophy.
Part of the modern problem is that the roots of the original game philosophy is still apparent, while Blizzard tries to adjust it to be more in line with their homogenization of classes. It used to be that hybrid classes had less damage but more utility and survivability, such as a ret paladin providing lower damage than an arms warrior, but have higher self-sustain and more utility in combat. This is no longer the case as the core of the game design is to make all classes equal dmg. This ofcourse has problems in PvP because what do we do when a hybrid class and a pure class have equal damage but hybrid classes have more stuff than pure classes? The solution has been to give pure classes the toys of the hybrids, such as Crimson Vial as a self heal.
But now the problem became that these well defined class roles from the core of World of Warcraft now seems unfair to people. People are unhappy that Frost DKs are not single target masters, when Blizzard have tried to provide a cleave class. People are unhappy with rogue’s because 1v1 should be completely balanced, but how do we make rogues relevant? Ah, we increase its survivability and damage, but now rogue’s are becoming better warriors because of all the CC, so we need to give arms warriors CC to compete, but now a lot of classes are struggling vs arms warrior, so we need to give more defenses to other classes, and you can hopefully see how the homogenization is a race that is impossible to win unless all classes become completely equal in the end. And we CAN do that, this is fine, but as long as one is aware that the rogue class fantasy will be destroyed in the process, and that it is fundamentally a change from the core fantasy of WoW, a removal of what makes it an MMORPG, RPG referring to classes with clearly defined roles.
So no. I don’t advocate for changes to the rogue to make it an S tier 1v1 god class. Not at all. But at the same time I can recognize that the class is not doing good as of patch 10.0.7 and the main problem is too little damage in pvp for all three speccs.
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No. It should be because their use in large scale battles or small scale, organized, fair battles (3v3 without being able to create numerical advantage etc) should be less than other classes.
Of course both HAVE to be bound else it is unfair. Obviously, if the class has an edge over every other in any sort of 1v1 scenario and then also excels at team wide brawling battles, it’s perfectly stupid. It’s like Ret right now. Night unbeatable when isolated, outdamaging everyone on any type of damage, wide team utility, broken and unfair. For example Ret could have the same overall design with way less damage, it would be nice. Some sort of half support class with amazing team utility, good survivability, but it doesn’t kill things alone. The opposite of what Rogues should be imo, as Rogues should be the ones able to kill stuff with damage, CC and offensice utility (Smoke Bomb like spells), but very little to no team support. And so you only stay in the fight as long as it’s unfairly advantageous, then, kite or die. Not stay in forever and never die like late SL Outlaw, not deal so much damage that your unfair advantage never ends due to sheer pressure like super early DF Assa, without falling into the overexaggeration of the hit & run playstyle that would allow you to literally kill every single time you appear like SL Sub.
It’s not an easy balance for sure, because by design Rogues have a great PvP kit so the line to walk is thin.
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Amen and God bless.
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I don’t get this idiot children logic that it should be severely punished for having been S tier?
Exactly, easy. None of us rogues are asking for our hardcounter in Ret to be obliterated as far as I can see either, we seem to agree their damage should be relative to their overall potential impact on the match, be it healing, team utility or whatever. Lillybot keeps on spewing crap everywhere, yet he/she/it could’ve simply made a rogue and tried to comprehend its mechanics and counter it. It’s obvious it has no idea how to deal with them. I’m just happy its opinions are so off that the current iteration will never be the case for too long and rogue will return to previous power levels and this spambot will continue to be unhappy alone instead of a big part of the playerbase.
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This is why I don’t have a serious dialog with him. He is just another “BURST!!! Wait… I am stunned? Wtf I am blinded?? I can’t burst!!!”
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Is being average a punishment for you?
But no, it was simply meant to legitimize that it’s okay not to always play first fiddle. There is no reason to be sad to become average since all glory is fleeting.
The reasons why it shouldn’t be meta have already been explained a few hundred times!
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Let me correct that for you:
The reasons why it needs to get nerfed, in my opinion, have already been subjectively explained a few hundred times, despite countless data showing those reasons are completely delusional and only my own agenda to get my most hated class destroyed.
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Hahah, exactly. Insane that it continues to present itself as the Bringer of Facts.
Does you panicking against rogues justify any punishment for the playerbase? You aren’t asking for average, you’re asking for a class to be not in the meta. What class do you play? Show us your main and we can give you a few tips to stop their go’s. Anyone here who reasons is against you. I am on multiple classes. I went to the forums because the Subtlety changes were uncalled for. The discussion should be how and what can make the meta broader in class/spec representation. You’re here spewing this crap:
aswell as in other rogue-related topics. Do yourself a favor and go learn it because you’re continuously speaking on something you know too little knowledge about.
for some reason cloak makes u immune to my pet stun on the first half a second
new rog thing just sounds like a mending bandage
Average means for most rogue players that their class is unplayable. But average usually just means to not be meta. Meta are usually the top specs, means those that are way above average.
So being average and not meta is basically the same for most players, at least rogue players who are used to be s tier.
I achieved 3 glad titles with rogue before I dropped it. I think I speak from experience here. How many did you achieve to think you have knowledge about the class?
Oh, is this how we argue now ? I have more, so I’m always more correct ?
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This is the PvP arena section. As long as you’re higher rated than the person you’re arguing with means everything you say is correct. 
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