True. Not many tho.
You could argue that it’s stronger, because Bubble can be mass dispelled.
Ofc it has some differences.
Thanks for explaining though, makes it easier to understand. Personally didnt know about the cloak one though even when ive played rogue in WoD I think it was when 5v5 was a thing x)
Even today most Rogues don’t know all that. I’ve had to explain it to many people. When you know, it becomes an easier spell to play against than when you believe these two defensives are immunities, right !
I always thought cloak should immune all magic based attacks/spells while its up but I did know about Evasion and how it worked. But yea, it clears up more in my mind. The only issue partly with the PvP talent is… its a PvP talent, and rogues have quite alot of PvP talents that already work.
No they don’t, we literally have 4 that people use…
And this could potentially make it 5, and theres 3 PvP talent slots. So?
So how can we already have “quite a lot of pvp talents that actually work” if 2 have been mandatory for ages and the other 2 you swap out? There’s barely any choice in talents. In fact, as a rogue compared to other specs (like healers), you barely change any talents…ever.
By your logic, just give every spec 3 talents and that’s it, cos they only have 3 slots.
Explain to me, where my logic said there should only be 3 talents couz theres 3 slots x) Tell me with your logic.
My point is more, the more talents they give that puts aside either a mandatory one or alike, sure, is feels good with options but will also have times when its “FeelsBadMan”. Would you make those mandatory ones not mandatory? And just make them weaker to compete then? Give me your expert opinion.
Rogues have taken damage nerfs consistently, they will lose a lot of value on their CCs and kick, they lose their slow suppress/root break
God forbid they get anything I suppose 
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I think that its unfair that I as a rogue cant play healer or tank, and that I as a rogue dont have tons of AoE like a mage. Its also super unhealthy I think that rogue’s cant survive like a warrior or a ret paladin in group fights or that we dont have a bear form like a feral druid.
Hopefully from above description you can understand that classes have different strengths and weaknesses (the RPG in MMORPG) and that the reason the rogue class is designed as it is because it fills out roles that other classes cant fill to balance out the game as a group experience (the MMO in MMORPG). The rogue class is from the release of the original WoW game, where each class did well in different aspects of the game, and the rogue class was intended to be great at the 1v1 fight. This means that the weakness of the rogue is our targets having friends.
The rogue class (and the hunter class) serves as a very important role in BGs; avoid zerg groups with only one person defending on each zone. The rogue class, because they have strengths in 1v1, will force the enemy to make more smaller groups. Without the rogue class, you will see BG strategies converge towards the same type of playstyle that ret/arms meta is promoting; zugzug. And while it can be infuriating playing vs a rogue in the 1v1 match, it is absolutely necessary to split the zugzug train to have diverce BG strategies.
From your description of the rogue it really sounds like you are struggling with playing against them. From this, as a rogue main since 2005, I can tell you that what I fear most are good frostmages and warlocks (if we ignore the arms/ret bonanza we have in 10.0.7), because these exact classes have tons of strengths vs rogues. But it is also important to state that the 1v1 rogue vs warlock is a skill fight 100%. On my warlock I cannot for the love of it do anything against rogues because I suck at warlock, on the other hand I can kill most warlocks on my rogue except those that absolutely is destroying it at their class. Some warlocks can make my life as a rogue so much of a nightmare that I want to throw my keyboard out of the window.
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I think it is Assassination only. Assa has fewer usable talents than the other two specs right now, so, it is nice. That means you’ll have Smoke Bomb, Dismantle and this new thing. Hemotoxin is not worth it right now and they’ll butcher Maneuverability, so, no, we won’t have “many other talents already” at all. If anything, we’ll still feel like we have only one useful one against casters - Smoke Bomb - since the rest will be useless.
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Well you kinda stomped upon the problem. While classes had strengths and weaknesses in their toolkit, they kinda got what others had over the time, until they were prunned. But rogues didn’t lose as much by prunning.
That’s why I am saying. Rogue has strenghts (CC, utility, damage), so it should have weaknesses - low survivability: No Feint, probably no Cheat Death, no Self-heal.
One patch before, Rogue literally replaced Warrior as it had everything that Warriors have, including very strong MS, but better.
Nothing wrong with that, but I doubt it to be honest.
Lillydot back at infiltrating rogue posts and 
-posting about rogues while having zero value to bring to the discussion.
In this meta I dont really understand how people think rogue survivability is good.
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I agree. I think classes have been generally given too much tools that other classes have. As a rogue main, I would gladly lose Crimson Vial, Feint and Cheat Death to focus entirely on our capabilities to stalk, pray, ambush and assassinate a single target. And I think we should be bad at cleave and AoE damage in general to emphasis that rogues are a careful stalker that strikes weak targets, not a group fighter like a warrior or paladin.
But reducing the rogue toolkit only makes sense if they do the same for other classes.
- Warriors need less CC and less mobility (they are wearing plate after all) but should be lethal in melee.
- Paladins need less damage but more survivability since they have so much utility and self-healing.
- Mages need to be squishier, they are wearing cloth after all. But most melee classes need less gapclosers so that mages are rewarded for intelligent play.
- Druids need less damage since they have perhaps the biggest toolbelt in the entire game, and thus have a plethora of opportunities to capitalize on.
But by design we are just closely moving to the original vanilla/TBC wow class designs. But I personally am completely in favor of redoing classes to match their old philosophies while retaining new and more interesting and fluid playstyles.
But I also think this topic is hard, most likely there are people who disagree and there is no right answer here, we all like WoW in different eras.
That being said. There is one thing that needs to be addressed;
- Current fistweaver design completely breaks the game. In BGs without dampening, I regularly see fistweaver solo 2-3 people because somehow somewhere someone thought it would be a good idea to give a single class both the dmg throughput and the healing throughput of a dps and a healer IN ONE PLAYER, basically making fistweavers count as 2 players for every single spot they fill.
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First of all, past tense. Me, I never dropped it in 17 years. Go re-learn it. Second, add some credibility to your claims. Post from your rogue. Even so, good job on doing a Sam L Jackson in Django Unchained on us, you’re literally Stephen. You’re this petty about not even a spec, but an entire class, while claiming you’ve played it at that level makes your attitude even more laughable(all the while we’ve seen S-tiers closer to God tier than ever). Third, you don’t understand the concept of meta and you’re a lost case, mate, no point explaining it to you. And again with your idiot children logic, you’d tell Bob Dylan to go win a few song contest before claiming he has knowledge about music, wouldn’t you?
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Noname back at defending anti rogue posts in any topic, while also bringing zero value to the topic.
Now that we discovered that, can you finally of? 
Im actually bringing a lot of value by providing insight into facts from external sources much more reliable than a narcissist like you.
And no, as long as you keep trying to gaslight and manipulate the narrative of the current 10.0.7 situation of the rogue, I will stay here and answer that voice with facts, logic and reason.
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Fair.
I think that ship has sailed a long time ago- Designing the game around support specs and niche roles is not something that will ever come back to this game, and frankly it probably shouldn’t.
The game is moving ever more toward a solo-player experience with group content as a sidenote (which I think is fine), so it means that all classes need to be able to perform close to as optimally as possible in all situations.
This does not mean we need or even want to homogenize classes. I think a healthy middle ground can be found. For all the faults WoD gets as an expansion, the class design was quite solid in that one. All classes were able to perform more or less on their own, but each spec still had their own mechanical fluff and curiosities (gladiator stance warriors, ember tap locks, etc).
This is however something I just do not agree on. First, stealth is, as said, a reward on it’s own. It is probably one of the best defensive and offensive utility ability ability in the game.
As said, it guarantees you a first strike, or first action. Be it sapping one teammate and taking out the other or w/e, the possibilities are endless. That is very much a thing that matches the fantasy of stalking and ambushing people, and that is very much true to this date.
What it does not and should not guarantee you is a clean kill without consequences, so long as you get the first blow. That is not okay. If you reduce those interactions to always turn in the rogues favour, you remove counterplay potential and second wind’s from the opponent.
Equally, I believe it is very healthy for the game that some classes and specs are weak to the others. For example, all cloth casters are notoriously susceptible to hunters, and have been for most of their existence (the ranged variations, anyway). In turn, hunters are relatively weak to classes with high uptime and high burst damage, since they lack proper defensives outside their mobility.
The fact that Rogue struggles against classes like warriors, paladins and death knights seems completely fair and in line with their fantasy. They are a rat class (no insult intended) that like to play dirty, and if they can’t take out their opponent in one go, then they are going to have a bad time. That’s how it should be. Not all of rogue’s prey are “gazelles”.
Just because you are not guaranteed a kill or a win in an 1v1 situation as a rogue does not make stealth or ambushing people useless- That is still going to be an edge they can’t take away from you, it just means that that bonus is less significant than it is against classes like mages or priests, for example.
Oh there are plenty gazelles in the S-tier. Mages who just today won AWC, Destro locks (same as the former), BM hunter (despite being extremely strong right now, it is not strong for it’s defensives). Even WW was there before the damage nerfs.
But I do agree with the principle that there is a distressing lack of counterplay options against multiple classes. Too many abilities that do too many things and too many utilities baked into rotational abilities.
As far as I understand, rogues still make short work of hunters, demon hunters, monks, mages (in some cases), and they are also quite effective against warlocks and priests.
Now, the reason why they can’t do that RN is because for every one of those classes there’s about 8 ret paladins and 4 arms warriors to give you a bad time any time you so much as dare stepping out of stealth.
As said, I doubt we will agree on this but consider this:
- It is not a simple “global headstart”. It is actually, depending on the DR and the class and whether they are willing to burn trinket on it, up to 3-4 globals. Or 2, if it is garrote. Idk if anybody even uses ambush anymore or if it even exists.
- You get to choose where you ambush your opponent from and how. You could put all the bleeds on him and run behind a pillar, for one, or any number of things.
I will simply agree to disagree, because I think Stealth is anything but weak in current meta.
True, that is why the Rogue relies more on the team in fights than the other classes do. In return, rogue is the only melee class capable of doing a shadowstep into kick into healer and still make it back in time to do a smokebomb kidney shot into the kill target.
And that is also why the Rogue spent the entire last expansion disengaging from fights- To the point with all the training wheels attached in the form of cloaked in shadows and other passives and active abilities that it was impossible even for classes like hunters with hunter’s mark to keep them permanently in combat.
Except that, the enemy defender will have to burn his/her trinket on sap if they want to stop your flag capture attempt, and if they do so, you can blind them. And even if that fails, you can always just vanish and try again, and even if the help arrives, you will have tied 1-2x players to come and force you off the flag.
Consider this from the opposite perspective. If a Warrior wants to go and take that same flag, whoever is defending the flag can just tell his friends before the fight even starts that there is a warrior coming in to take the flag, which means that the warrior is on the clock the second he is seen, whereas the rogue is from the moment he lands sap. That is quite a big advantage.
I think having a fair chance or a slight advantage against -some- classes is absolutely fine. That goes for all classes. And right now, that is achieved.
I think the major distinction with hybrids from normal classes in these days is that they can heal / help others in abundance compared to non-hybrids. Not the difference in damage.
I think Survival Hunter and Rogue are in many ways very similar- The only difference being that Rogue is more burst damage oriented and has more hard offensive utility, whereas survival hunter is more focused on positioning, area denial and trapping.
Defensively they are also very similar, although hunter has the luxury that even though once the defensives are spent, it has the mobility and area denial capacity to keep itself going just a little longer against some comps.
Rogue on the other hand has objectively better defensives, but in return once those defensives are gone, that’s it. And that, as far as I know, has always been the case with rogues.
If you ask me I would not change a thing about rogues RN, I would simply nerf the overperforming specs and that’d be that.