New Rogue PvP talent in 10.1 is exactly what's wrong with the game

[Engaged-kazzak (Engaged)]

@Lillydot-mograine

A black part in my WoW history.

Ridiculous. But again, show it. You’re backing up nothing. But yeah, you act like a rogue, you got 100% uptime on Evasion dodging all our arguments.

@Lillydot-mograine

That might be your perspective, but ever thought about that some people might think you and all the other pitiful rogue defender are spewing the crap here?

Yeah, of course a hater would define my discussing within reason as crap. I don’t hate on any class though, I want to fight as many combinations of classes as possible, on the most equal terms possible, on all of my characters. When I meet rogues I feel more confident because I know it, you should too mr. Glad. When I meet f.ex Unholy DK much less so, because I haven’t played it myself since Legion.

@Lillydot-mograine

The devs think its fine to just balance classes around damage, tank and defensives but they leave cc, offensive tools like healing reduction and comp balance alone, which are as important!

Another lie, really…? Like, what game are you playing. In WoD we saw the Great Pruning and DR changes, in Legion some CC was given only certain specs (in rogues’ case Gouge), in more recent history we saw Echoing Resolve and Fastidious Resolve have serious impact, now we have 15% CC reduction and next patch we have an across the entire board CC adjustment. It’s very much being worked on continuously, and I fear it’s going too far because of the crying minority in people like yourself.

@Lillydot-mograine

I do that too, but you just don’t get it. I am saying that rogue is broken because its class design is broken.

So it’s broken because it isn’t solely reliant on competing in the DPS race? What do you want out of the game exactly, shouldn’t you look forward to playing a whole bunch of different comps and styles? Which playstyles should be removed and why? What are you suggestions to fix rogue without it being homogenized? While we’re at it, which classes are fine? I see you’ve complained about pretty much each and every one. I think I might be able to pin down which one you play if I just…

[Vxgas-ragnaros]

The bubble for me as a Rogue is to be able to fight against Paladin, warrior, hunters, ench-sha, druids and dk. Right now im dead if i encounter any of them one on one. And dead i mean as super dead. I cant get through their armor as a sub-rog and we have leather as armor. Last, lowering CC time is going to affect Rogues more than any class.

[Lillydot-mograine]

@Engaged-kazzak

When I meet rogues I feel more confident because I know it, you should too mr. Glad.

The difference between us both is, that you play versus players that barely can handle the class, while I have to deal with players who are close to master it.

@Engaged-kazzak

Another lie, really…?

I even gave you the blue quote?

@Engaged-kazzak

In WoD we saw the Great Pruning and DR changes, in Legion some CC was given only certain specs (in rogues’ case Gouge), in more recent history we saw Echoing Resolve and Fastidious Resolve have serious impact

Pruning? They mostly pruned counter play and that is also the reason and the moment, when RMP became too broken. Sure, Rogue + Mage was always a strong comp for those who were able to master it, but the pruning made it a lot easier for RMX as they mostly pruned the enemies in their shutdown possibilities.

@Engaged-kazzak

in more recent history we saw Echoing Resolve and Fastidious Resolve have serious impact

Terrible solutions that MOSTLY affected those comps with less cc that were very depending on interrupts.

The 15% flat were better, but they changes coming with 10.1 are even making it more worse for all that are not Mage, Lock and Rogue. Because while most classes only get values decreased, those 3 classes get some old values back and in case of Mage, they get an insane PvP talent that makes it even more worse than ever.

@Engaged-kazzak

It’s very much being worked on continuously

It’s the first time in 2 decades that they actually look into every cc separately and are trying to get something done, but like usual they did a bad job. They had the chance to equal out cc, but they wanted to keep the class fantasy while not combine it with damage, defense, offensive toolkit, etc.

Take rogue. They need to have less defense than most other classes. Why? Because they have so much control that is better than every defensive cd. So if they give them good defense on top of it, the class becomes automatically broken.

@Engaged-kazzak

and I fear it’s going too far because of the crying minority in people like yourself.

Minority? The only people that are not crying about rogues are people that play rogue or with a rogue mainly!!!

@Engaged-kazzak

So it’s broken because it isn’t solely reliant on competing in the DPS race?

I guess I explained a couple of times already why rogue design is broken! It has too much control and offensive toolkit.

What ever, just another pitiful rogue defender.

[Zotnar-draenor]

@Lillydot-mograine

The difference between us both is, that you play versus players that barely can handle the class, while I have to deal with players who are close to master it.

Oh so you are a grandiose narcissist. I had my suspicion, but this comment illustrates it very well.

@Lillydot-mograine

Minority? The only people that are not crying about rogues are people that play rogue or with a rogue mainly!!!

Show me this data. I don’t believe it and I don’t trust you.

@Lillydot-mograine

I guess I explained a couple of times already why rogue design is broken!

You atleast explained what your opinion on that matter is. The explanations were not very consistent or reasonable. You might think they are good, but you often use terminology wrongly, or illustrate misunderstandings of concepts.

[Zotnar-draenor]

@Vxgas-ragnaros

The bubble for me as a Rogue is to be able to fight against Paladin, warrior, hunters, ench-sha, druids and dk. Right now im dead if i encounter any of them one on one. And dead i mean as super dead. I cant get through their armor as a sub-rog and we have leather as armor. Last, lowering CC time is going to affect Rogues more than any class.

I am afraid that this is a slippery slope. When rogue and paladin have bubble, what classes then need it to compete? Won’t we end up in a meta were all classes now also need a bubble to survive? I mean, we have already in 10.0.7 seen with the mass population of ret paladins what a meta looks like when the majority have bubble, and its horrendous.

A strategy could be to remove all bubbles from all classes, and then give such abilities to healers instead. Healers are already feeling like they are not important, giving them the only source of bubbles might help make people find them fun and relevant in pvp.

[Engaged-kazzak (Engaged)]

@Lillydot-mograine

The difference between us both is, that you play versus players that barely can handle the class, while I have to deal with players who are close to master it.

Exactly, and here we are, so back to what I’ve said previously… By the way, show us your main, post from it?

@Engaged-kazzak

Anyway, if a 3500 player can cause hell with a certain class it doesn’t mean the 95% of the rest should be punished.

@Engaged-kazzak

’s not rendered useless because of potential at top 1% rating.

Get that? If this is your reason you’re also asking for a state of the game that will drive away the majority of PvP players. How are you gonna convince a new player that playing this game is fun, but kinda sucks now (and is gonna for a good while) but it will finally be worth it after having put in the 10,000th hour?

@Lillydot-mograine

I guess I explained a couple of times already why rogue design is broken! It has too much control and offensive toolkit.

Now I want you to pinpoint what offensive toolkit and why it’s too much in its current state. What about Hunter and Mages? Are they broken in their design aswell? Tell us which classes are fine.

[Lillydot-mograine]

@Engaged-kazzak

By the way, show us your main, post from it?

Is your level 50 mage your main?

@Engaged-kazzak

Get that?

I do, but do you get my reply to that? When 95% of the player base can’t handle a class correctly, we should make it easier. And making it easier usually results in less options, because less options equals lower skill cap.

That would actually result in something I want. A rogue with less options. Making a setup every 20 seconds on Rogue is obviously too hard, so make Kidney a 45 second for example, because making a setup every 45 seconds is a lot easier.

@Engaged-kazzak

Now I want you to pinpoint what offensive toolkit

I already did, but you aren’t capable of reading I guess. How about healing reduction effects? Or range slow on different targets? Or longer cast time for your enemies? Don’t they have an impact on the offensive strength of a class and should therefore be taking into account when balancing the damage?

[Shadenox-ravencrest (Shadenox)]

@Lillydot-mograine

How about healing reduction effects?

Currently the weakest mortal strike effect out of melees that have one. 24% when stacked up, requires 5 stacks, dispellable. Monks have 25% without the need to stack it up and it isn’t dispellable. Arms, same thing. Havoc, Hubter (all specs), Demonology… same. I suppose Feral is relatively similar to Rogue on that field although it is only two stacks and not 5, on a rarer dispel.

@Lillydot-mograine

Or range slow on different targets

This is not a Rogue thing, but an Assassination thing. Yet you moan all the same when Sub or Outlaw overperform Assa. And other specs have such a tool on a stronger version. Unholy and Frost. Better slow, not dispellable, can spam it more before being out of ressources than Assa can before being out of energy (because yes, Poisoned Knife isn’t exactly free).

@Lillydot-mograine

Or longer cast time for your enemies?

Actually nerfed not into the ground, but even deeper 4 times in a row within a couple months.

[Engaged-kazzak (Engaged)]

@Lillydot-mograine

Is your level 50 mage your main?

You’ve already used 3rd party sites to find some of mine. Yet you’re hiding your several Glads, show 'em! Come on, add some credibility to yourself.

@Lillydot-mograine

That would actually result in something I want. A rogue with less options. Making a setup every 20 seconds on Rogue is obviously too hard, so make Kidney a 45 second for example, because making a setup every 45 seconds is a lot easier.

See, now there’s something to actually discuss. This would result in homogenizing though, I don’t agree that every class should be that predictable and rogue would need to be close to as tanky as Outlaw in last SL season. Rogue is given these options because they aren’t tanky. So then my question would be, after 20 years, should armor not matter? Should we just be indifferent to seeing Plate, Leather, Mail but just take it as a melee? Or rather, how would you make up for it? Because if you mean that a 25 sec to Kidney should not be made up for, I can’t take you seriously. Now let us know what class you’re playing at least, so we can further the discussion and make comparisons.

@Lillydot-mograine

When 95% of the player base can’t handle a class correctly, we should make it easier.

Weren’t you talking about your opposition mastering the class? So that’s baseline, haha what the actual f** is this argument.

[Lillydot-mograine]

@Engaged-kazzak

You’ve already used 3rd party sites to find some of mine.

Typical Rogue player Let the others do the work, I want the easy way! Feel free to do the same, its not that hard even for a classic alt.

@Engaged-kazzak

See, now there’s something to actually discuss.

You aren’t here to discuss, neither am I. You are here to get rogue back to its broken state. I am here to keep them where they are, maybe get them even a bit below in a balanced and good state. Same for mage, especially frost.

@Engaged-kazzak

Weren’t you talking about your opposition mastering the class?

You were the one saying that we shouldn’t balance for the top 5% but for the bottom 95%. Your reasoning was that the bottom 95% aren’t as good. So basically spoken, that they can’t master the class.

So what is the best way to achieve both? Reducing the skill cap so its easier to master! But we don’t want a 0815 passive gameplay like DH, so we need to reduce their options as that will make sure, that good players can’t get more out of it than they should while bad players can get more out of it, not so much limited by their skill.

So in short: reduce options, increase cooldowns! But make it a bit more noob friendly. I already gave an example for that: Kidney 45 seconds cd and only 4 seconds duration but therefore without combo point cost for example.

That was the whole argument in short, sorry if that wasn’t explained easy enough for you before.

[Engaged-kazzak (Engaged)]

@Lillydot-mograine

sorry if that wasn’t explained easy enough for you before.

Mate, you’ve skipped replying to most of my arguements aswell as starting this paragraph misunderstanding the meaning of what you’re responding to is while closing with this belittling comment haha it’s actually insane how you dodge these things like Floyd Mayweather. You seem to get nothing at all while continuing to argue for homogenized gameplay. So you want that?

@Lillydot-mograine

I already gave an example for that: Kidney 45 seconds cd and only 4 seconds duration but therefore without combo point cost for example.

And what would make up for it? Is rogue’s defensive capabilities good enough for no compensation? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY1F4SQNyRc

@Lillydot-mograine

Let the others do the work, I want the easy way!

It’s not about me doing some You-type stalker thing to find you, it’s about you backing up your claims. You’re cowardly flaming peoples rating in discussions while you hide your alleged Glads.

[Lillydot-mograine]

@Engaged-kazzak

haha it’s actually insane how you dodge these things like Floyd Mayweather.

Sorry, but at some point my brain automatically starts to filter out nonsense. I am even surprised myself, that it still recognizes your name.

@Engaged-kazzak

Is rogue’s defensive capabilities good enough for no compensation?

It is, because rogues are meant to die easy. That have been part of wow before RMX became too broken. Either they won the game within 3 minutes or they went out of options and lost because the damage on them became too overwhelming.

With Shadowlands then we reached the mountain of absurdity by making RMP basically immortal! They had become the best setup but also the best dampener comp. There was no other comp as broken as RMP if played correctly.

So its the best thing to do to go back to the roots. Let them at least die if they weren’t able to get something done in a few setups!

Either that, or they need to change their design away from setups more into a dampener design. That is okay for me, but that means defense only in exchange for offensive cc!

@Engaged-kazzak

It’s not about me doing some You-type stalker thing to find you, it’s about you backing up your claims.

I don’t care if you trust me or not. You can easily find my profile with 2 minutes of work. If you want to know it so badly, its up to you. And where do you actually backing up your claims? Based on what are you even allowed to talk about balancing if you need to backup your claims?

[Engaged-kazzak (Engaged)]

@Lillydot-mograine

So its the best thing to do to go back to the roots.

Alright, so that means rogue gets Preparation back?

@Lillydot-mograine

It is, because rogues are meant to die easy.

Yes, I agree in that they should die easier than Plate and Mail, which they already do. In fact, if you watched the video you’d know that they’re currently the easiest melee to train regardless of their defensives. However, there’s a shade there in the semantic; dying easy makes it unfair. Hence the playstyle of them being agile opportunists like their class fantasy insinuates. But it has to translate ingame, which it doesn’t but previously has, which is why rogues are not happy at the minute, which is why there’s discussion, which you should leave alone being all clueless about it. You’re referencing their 20 year old toolkit as argument for being broken, mounted high up on your Glad achievement pedestal, not being able to pinpoint anything but Kidney Shot’s duration and CD as broken, all the while acting completely belittling towards people who reference and back up their opinions with testing, statement, experience etc. You can’t be a three times Glad rogue talking about 20s go’s as if they’re equally threatening and just how it constantly is. There are several ways to stop it, and you as a Glad should know many more than myself.

@Lillydot-mograine

that good players can’t get more out of it than they should while bad players can get more out of it, not so much limited by their skill.

Look at this, mate. Do you see it yourself, or do I need to point it out?

[Shadenox-ravencrest (Shadenox)]

@Engaged-kazzak

there’s a shade

!

@Engaged-kazzak

not being able to pinpoint anything but Kidney Shot’s duration and CD as broken

Especially when the argument is “make it 45s CD 4s duration but free of CP”, meanwhile WARRIORS have a 4s stun on a 30s CD, ranged, undodgeable, unparryable, and that deals damage. But the class isn’t yellow so it would be better for balance to make Kidney a 4s duration, 45s CD melee stun that can be dodged, while Storm Bolt remains as is.

Some arguments are just useless. Don’t waste time.

[Obilot-argent-dawn (Obilot)]

@Shadenox-ravencrest

but that does not mean it should kill alone 100-0 in a stun.

This should never happen. Counterplay should always be an option, also in 1v1.

[Lillydot-mograine]

@Engaged-kazzak

Alright, so that means rogue gets Preparation back?

And target binded combo points for example?

@Engaged-kazzak

dying easy makes it unfair.

No, it makes it fair. They have all advantages on their side in the opener with stealth, massive cc and so on. Their time to kill should be limited and that is where defensive cds kick in. They shouldn’t be able to tank any damage and they shouldn’t be able to survive for long!

@Engaged-kazzak

which is why there’s discussion

This discussion only exists because guys like you aren’t happy when Rogue isn’t broken S tier.

Anyways, 3rd person on my ignore list. Ironically only rogues on it, there must be something going on with people playing that class.

[Engaged-kazzak (Engaged)]

@Lillydot-mograine

Anyways, 3rd person on my ignore list. Ironically only rogues on it, there must be something going on with people playing that class.

It just says a lot about you and how well you thought your argument was going.

@Lillydot-mograine

No, it makes it fair.

I think I’m satisfied here. You’ve showed yourself as completely clueless on several issues.

[Engaged-kazzak (Engaged)]

@Shadenox-ravencrest

meanwhile WARRIORS have a 4s stun on a 30s CD, ranged, undodgeable, unparryable, and that deals damage.

Yes, exactly. He’s revealed himself as just another hater though. Argues like he recently watched a youtube vid on how to.

[Lillydot-mograine]

@Engaged-kazzak

It just says a lot about you and how well you thought your argument was going.

It does. I keep it very simple. I got annoyed too much by the stupidity of a person? I am using the options the devs are giving me.

If you think you are so important to me, that I want to continue this time wasting nonsense when you are missing the fundamentals to even understand my posts, it actually tells a lot more about you.

@Engaged-kazzak

You’ve showed yourself as completely clueless on several issues.

Just from the perspective of very clueless person and I mean, we both know how clueless you are!

My last respond, ignore is active now.

[Vulrin-argent-dawn (Vulrin)]

Idk i’m still cringing over rogue 4 sets next patch honestly, It’ll be nice to see rogue have a dwarf racial of sorts but idk if i want to play my rogue in current game even with the talent being live as it is currently cause lethality is still very high outside of peoples burst windows.

Spent most patch chilling and healing for fun and taking the game less serious since blizzard don’t seem to have any interest in fixing MMR in any bracket outside of solo queue shuffle now.