but i already have everything i want. with the current tree.
you dont ?
of course there are imbalances, no one claimed otherwise.
what i am saying, with the classes we have right on, there is nothing more to do to fix it. anything else, will make it worse.
some classes simply do more damage than others.
some are designed to be “specialists” and some are designed as, someone said before me, “jack of all trades, master of none”.
mages should be higher, that is something they need to fix. it doesnt mean they need to break everything.
Ofc not, i want other stuff in DF.
And guess what, the new trees will make it possible.
That’s great, new stuff will cause imbalances, might cause the top dps to become the worst, might cause them to be higher.
Well, there will be tuning passes as always before the expac hits.
this is what you dont get, tuning talent trees take a VERY long time. in the case of the original tree and MOP talents, each took years with like a billion re-tweaks.
im tired of arguing with you, it sometimes feels like im arguing with child.
if you think this system will be so great, wait and see. as always, there will be a honeymoon phase, and when it will end, you will realize there is no real choices and this system is unnecessary and broken.
Yes it does because they went to length in that post and in their video to explain that they want you to not feel like you are being pruned. Yet, if I have to give up stuff that I have now baseline to get something I can have now as a talent (where previously I could have that + 6 other things), + the legendary effects and conduits, then that is word-on-word, prune.
Now, let me be clear here. I do not mind garbo conduits, legendaries and talents going away. We’ve had several dead talents across classes since Legion that haven’t been addressed, so it’s not like the old talent tree was perfect, I never said it was. However, this whole talent tree is advertised to be better, but it doesn’t have -anything- to suggest it is that way.
Again, it is the same thing wrapped in different paper. Your class is still designed the same way. Fact. Your class will still be balanced the exact same way. Fact. Your talents, passives and improvements are still the same, with nothing new and innovative between them. Also a fact.
Tell that to everyone looking at those pictures and seeing the exact same thing with barely any changes. You always start the exact same path, you never go down the moonkin path (i wonder why lol), and you are very clearly min-maxing and following what Blizzard -wants- you to pick.
So they are, word on word, false choices. So that begs the question, what is the advantage to this new talent tree if you are anyway gonna pick almost all of the stuff at the beginning the same way anyway? What’s the point of them being talents for you to pick, and not part of your baseline toolkit?
I’ll answer that for you: Because that’d mean more work for Blizzard because they couldn’t just put baseline stuff that already exist into the trees to fill up the gaps. It’s easy, it’s lazy, and anybody can smell it a mile off.
Yes, thank you for proving the point. Your builds are a magnificent amount of 5% different from the 80% markoff, which means you are paying for 100% choice but only getting 25% out of it, thanks for proving the point, again.
Not true.
Hunter (BM)
Priest
Warrior
Monk
DH
Warlock
None of these classes need to pick between ST and AOE damage- Although, they do have rows where they do have to very in a very degenerate way pick and choose between for example utility and mobility (warrior talent tree for prot + fury where they have to pick between storm bolt, their only available stun, with a mobility option).
Now, that alone is degenerate but it is more the exception than the norm. In good game design, you pit the same choices vs other of their kind. This was how MoP talent trees worked. Your first row was either mobility or throughput row, followed by defensive or sustain row, followed by either a single target or AoE row, followed by offensive utility row, and finally on the 6th row you had some manner of major game changer in how you dealt damage or were able to deal it. Opportunity strikes on warrior, for example.
This pathing was shattered for whatever reason in Legion where Blizzard started to break up this tested and good design and instead started to throw AOE into single target rows and offensive utility with mobility for who knows what reason. Then again, these are the same devs who wanted people banned for saying Corruption was a crap mechanic, so what can you do.
Yes, because you had everything available for you anyway. So again, i ask you why should I be happy that I have “more” choice now, but in truth from that pool of available abilities I don’t get to pick all that I currently have baseline without sacrificing other stuff?
The end result is ±0, so what exactly is the magical selling point for these talent trees, if not “the same thing but in different package”.
No, in the BK example, after spending my talents on -all- the baseline abilities on the blood tree that you currently have, you have a grand total of 3 points left for your spec talents.
Whereas in SL, you have 7.
My point exactly. So, will you answer my question and provide me some proof that Blizzard can do it, or are you just high on hopium?
No, you said we have choice. Yet when I catch you lying and point out you can’t even choose not to forgo these things in these talent trees, then by definition they are not choices and they shouldn’t exist in the tree as such either.
Instead, you have no arguments and just tell me not to play them if I disagree. Stay mad + bad, etc.
You can’t advance down the unholy tree without picking the perma ghoul
Right back at you.
No you can’t. Proof:
You have to spend 1 more point on the ghoul in order to advance.
So, it turns out there is no choice after all, in this talent tree you so praise for having choice! Curious!
That’s not the point. I’m saying that having a gotcha at “Aha, but you can actually x amount more abilities, therefore you have more choices!” when that choice will never be played because you are literally building wrong. It’s a false choice- Unless, of course, you in your infinite wisdom want to market the new talent tree for it’s awesome utility of being able to make wrong choices. I’m sure that’s gonna be really popular among players, lol.
Since you can’t answer a very simply question as to in what world would I ever be more happy about having to choose utility from a pool, when in the past I had that whole pool available, you omit loss.
Thanks for admitting it, gg.
Actually it’s good you brought up soothe. Because that’s exactly what it is: It’s rarely used, but when you do, it can have a lot of impact. Kind of like tranquilizing shot which on its own looks like a wimpy and worse version of dispel, but if you use it well it can be very strong in for example pvp. Using it right after your opponent uses BoP to purge it instantly before they get another buff to cover it, etc.
Now, if in Dragonflight you no longer can do that because that ability has so little utility versus many of the other abilities and is so niche and needs all the stars to align to be useful such as the example I gave before, it will just be skipped in practice in most if not all builds because the other, more broader and general utility, is just way more useful.
The above feral player very well proves this with his example by never going down to get cyclone but instead always goes for the roar or bash, for example. You are never (0/0) ever going to trade that for the other.
The fact that it has so minor impact and minor use is -precisely- why this utility SHOULD be baseline. It’s the same thing with abilities like mind soothe, kicks, dispels and so forth.
And that’s also the reason why they have never been part of your talent trees since vanilla (save for silence for priests, but that makes sense since it is a blanket)- And why they still shouldn’t be.
They are exactly the kind of abilities that you do not miss- Until you miss them. And then you will feel robbed, because you had them for all these years. Your class wasn’t OP because of them. They didn’t make you overtuned. They were just this cool little utility you had- And now it’s gone. Because of some ??? reason.
Problem is, if you take all that minor utility out and baseline rotation abilities out from the tree, you are left with the exact same old talent trees as before, with still the same deadweight old talents pitted versus the talents that are actually good, and nothing has changed.
And that’s the problem with these talent trees: They masquerade as something new and great, when in truth they are the same thing wrapped in different paper.
https://mythictrap.com/dragonflights-talents?c254=4fti4g_0_0&c250=noi9ld_kc2eww_0
You have all the baseline from the spec tree and you go through 4 talents, you already have 4 talents by this point, and then you have 4 more points to chose stuff.
You can’t build your current SL build entirely and i never said that. Nor should it matter, things change between expacs.
You can go for whatever you want to go and get though, within the branches of the tree.
When you go for an ability there, you have to consider your path, because it’s a talent tree. You can go more on the left side, or on the right side… or full middle and get adjacent ones, you have choices to make.
If you constrict yourself to go for what you had, that’s your choice.
If you don’t want permanent ghoul you can forgo it, don’t use the ghoul… oh no you have to waste a point to go down further, how horrible.
Saying that you don’t have a choice isn’t true, there are plenty of choices, choices to do good dps, and choices to do bad dps, there just isn’t one in this specific case to not have it permanent, but you can just forgo and not use it if you’re that stubborn. Blizzard wants unholy to have permanent ghoul, that’s what they decided.
If you don’t want permanent ghoul, then give feedback for them to move the skill up the tree on the side somewhere so you get that choice as well.
Players will play what they want, be it meta or non-meta, that’s one of the choices they can make.
And not everyone is an idiot to pick up every baseline skill they had, when some baseline skills can pale in front of other talents.
You’re going to have to be happy in this world, because the trees are staying, or stop playing. gg
If you need it that badly, you’ll go and get it, if you don’t need it, you’ll spend that point on something more useful. You have that choice now.
You can, whether you should or need to is up to you and the situation.
That’s a player choice and they can definitely go for both if they want to.
There are enough points to get both if they want.
No, you among others said this isn’t prune disguised under new talent trees, which I have now proven to be false.
Whether ut is better or not (it wont be better), doesn’t matter a spit for the argument. Its less, therefore it is prune. And that’s that.
No it isn’t, it’s blizzards choice. They could have given us these new talent trees in the form that they add to our current toolkits and change them in different ways. They could have, but they don’t, contrary to what they said.
Blizzard sold these new talent trees as a wardrobe with new and old clothes you could freely make choices on to achieve a certain distinct look, a hybrid look or a conpletely random look of your choice. But it would be an addition to your baseline look, not the foundation of it.
Now, instead, they are not only offering you nothing new but all the smelly old clothes you didn’t even want back and they are mixed and mingled with the current stuff you have and want.
On top of that you dont even have your base clothes but you have ti get them too- which, reduces your ability to get other looks. But you have to take them anyway, because they are foundational.
That is what it is and I am exposing your and their lies for all to see.
Please explain to everyone here reading this conversation how can something on one hand be a free choice, but you are forced to pick it.
It is very black and white. You either have choice, or you don’t.
It is a false choice. Fact.
Choices forced behind false choices are no choices at all. If you have to build a talent tree on the foundation of false choices, then you have to ask yourself why build a new talent system in the first place? It is a waste of time.
Instead of redesigning every class from the ground up or better yet, using these new talent trees as something players can use to choose how their current spec plays, they offer us the exact same class design as it is in Shadowlands, they just outsource designing something out of the same uninspired mass they have been unable to work with since Legion.
They do it, and this is the truth, because they don’t know how. They don’t have the talent or skills of the old devs and guard that have left. They despise that people hate the expansions they have made with so much time and effort while refusing to admit their arrogance and flaws with class design.
Class design is hard work, so of course they waste that time on systems nobody asked for lile covenants, essences, azerite armor and corruptions.
Yes they can choose to make an idiotic choice. That really is peak game design and something I want to make sure is highlighted about a brand new system, lol.
No instead I can keep shooting down liars like you on these forums and proving that things have been way better and we shouldn’t be content with scraps.
If you have an issue with that you are just gonna have to live with that and keep taking the L’s.
That is the very opposite of what I said. I argued that since its utility is so small and that it is used in so few scenarios, pitting it agaibst other much better choices is no real choice at all. The game wont be broken or bad because it is baseline, so there exists no viable argument to have it as a talent.
Of course, if you have no imagination and want to be lazy, you just add it into the talent tree anyway because it means less work for you and you can 9 to 5 clock out of a job every day without putting any passion into your work.
Compare this talent tree to the profession revamp they are doing and the massive differences in tgeir enthusiasm and passion is palpatable. And it shows: The profession system is looking amazing, while the talent system looks like a complete mess.
Curious then that he made that very same choice in every single one of his “random” builds, don’t you think?
Almost as if that decision was already made for him. A false choice.
But the fact is, many have played this game for so long, and been through so many patch notes, that it’s not hard to predict the likely outcome of a list of changes. Especially not when you can theorize it with a talent calculator.
If we look at the Druid/Feral tree, the way it looks currently, here’s a short list of things that are deeply problematic:
It’s fairly obvious I’ll be forced to let something go of either Bear Defensives, Soothe+Stampeding Roar, Cyclone, Nature’s Vigil+Innervate+Vortex. I don’t want to be forced to choose between Cyclone, Stampeding Roar and Soothe. They should all be baseline.
Tiger’s Fury is only 20 energy by default, and the talents to improve it are not mandatory (and very early in the tree). It’s highly likely that people will spend as few points as possible in these talents, to get to the juicy bottom rank talents. We might end up with a 30 energy TF being the “best” spec for most scenarios. Tiger’s Fury hasn’t been less than 60 energy in any real scenario since TBC.
Tireless Pursuit is an awful conduit and now talent (it’s supposed to solve Powershifting being gone, but it doesn’t, like at all) and even if it did it’s completely out of the way such that I won’t be able to pick it in most scenarios.
Predatory Swiftness and Infected Wounds both look like they’ll likely not be possible to pick up in many potential BiS builds. They should both be baseline.
Typhoon and Hibernate will never be viable picks for Feral, even though Hibernate used to be baseline and Typhoon was (almost) always a valid option.
People will 100% be forced to pick e.g. survivability talents in the class tree and won’t be able to pick things like Hibernate and Cyclone which are fun and which add depth and skill. In the same fashion we’ll be forced to pick throughput talents in the spec tree and won’t be able to pick things like e.g. Predatory Swiftness. All of these things used to be baseline.
It’s a combination of false choice and pruning.
PS: It’s spelled “pruned”, not “prunned”.
And… now we won’t. Because there are other things that are more important in the tree. Ergo, we’re being pruned of something that was once baseline.
It isn’t, and even if it were, then most of these things I’m made to choose between are things I currently have either baseline or via mandatory talents or mandatory borrowed power.
And half the stuff that you have in talent trees now were never in talent trees in the past, or if they at any point were, they were put in such a way that you had to pick them - which they aren’t now. The trees were much different back then.
The guy doesn’t understand the concept of false choice, and that just because there are more options in the talent tree than in the past we can, and will, still end up with less since too many of the options used to be baseline/mandatory talents/mandatory borrowed power - i.e. things that we had all at once.
I think the idea is good, but the talents are built kinda poorly.
It feels like Blizzard are forcing players to play a certain way if they want to go M+ build. Can´t really go for a more defensive build as a Guardian in M+ if that´s what you want, or a more offensive build.
BdK is better but still needs improvement. A M+ BdK build without gorefiends grasp… Really?
It’s not a pruning, pruning means having your abilities deleted by Blizzard, you have them in the talent tree to get if you want.
You can’t get them all at the same time maybe, but it doesn’t matter, new expansion means lots of stuff is changing.
No, that’s exactly the point, if it’s better or not, if you’re getting more out of these trees than you’re getting on live.
You’re one of those that thought you were getting 60 new talents? Cause that’s delusional, really.
You’re building your foundation, there’s nothing wrong with that.
It’s not a false choice, you going to complain that the 1st talent in the tree is a false choice too?
It’s a tree, the root talents will always be mostly the same, because it’s a bloody tree.
You can’t cherry pick what talents you get.
Like i said above, it’s a talent tree, the foundation is always going to there, idk what’s so hard to understand about this.
Or how you were expecting to fill the tree, you’re always starting by the roots, not the crown.
It’s true, they need better inspiration for abilities.
Those were the abilities they wanted us to have to keep things fresh, their acquisition was the largest issue, or immovability like in case of covenants, taking 2 weeks to change was crap.
That sounds good to me, everyone is responsible for their choices… it isn’t much different from current talent system, you could pick the worst ones and have le4ss dps or survivability or healing.
After getting soothe you can get the dash talent, they’re practically a package deal if you want them.
You can’t cherry pick what you get with a talent tree, nor should you, you’re weighting your paths, where you stop, where you end up.
He had the base stuff the same, you can’t start your tree from the top.
Deviation is also up to the player, he valued those talents the most, others may think some of those don’t have value and take other stuff.
The decision wasn’t made for him… he made it himself.
You probably won’t get Hybernate as feral/guardian but it’s very possible to get Cyclone easily, you’re also getting heal talents along the way. So that is important for PVP.
For PVE you probably won’t care much for Cyclone and you go another way and get other stuff.
You can get them all at the same time though…
No you can’t get all bear defensives and get those too, you’re going to have to chose.
That was a straight up nerf to the ability.
Yeah… 30 energy is the best to leave on that as it stands.
And no, i’m not saying that it’s fine how they butchered it.
Imo, they should have left abilities as they are originally in SL if they moved them to the tree.
It is pruning. Just like defensive stance was baseline ability for all warriors from vanilla till WoD, until in Legion they made it an arms talent for ??? reasons. Even when they promised they would return abilities like that baseline to classes (since it was picked 99,9999999999999999999% times in pvp), they actually didn’t.
It’s the equivalent of me always getting bread + glass of water when I buy a meal, but the next day I go to the business they say you have to pay for them separately to get them. I still have the option to get them, but obviously they have been pruned from my basic choice, which is really well illustrated by the cyclone example by the druid player above.
You are getting more options, but you are able to pick less of them. Again, it is prune. Plain and simple.
No, that’s the thing. That is the way they sold these talent trees to us.
They promised us genuine customization: Lie. You’re still expected to take your core abilities, even forced to, in many cases (see: Ghoul, frost strike, etc).
They promised us ability to build toward hybridity: False. The classes in Shadowlands are actually way more hybrid, because they do not have to give up any of their baseline utility to get others that they don’t have, exactly how the druid player showed above with the cyclone example.
I knew 100% that this was a marketing lie, and I knew 100% when I saw the first picture of the druid tree and recognized those baseline abilities in it that it was a scam. And I have been calling it a scam since then, because it is one.
I never expected to get 61 brand new talents because that is god damn impossible for these developers. They can’t even come up with 21 talents in current talent trees and make all of them competitive, how the hell could they achieve that with 61??
I knew this game was rigged from the start.
Yes there is. Because if that’s the argument, why have classes at all in the first place? Why not just let us build our own damn classes and specs from scratch if the developers don’t want to consciously design a class or spec for us and then set us boundaries within which to operate in?
Again, because of laziness.
Yes! That’s the whole point!
Why the hell are things like frost strike, permanent ghoul, rake, frenzied regeneration etc even talents? You’re going to have to pick them anyway, you are forced to, so why have them as talents? Why not have something more innovative like
Talents that change how your basic abilities work
Talents that completely rework the way how your core rotation / resources / mastery works
Talents that improve the ability on some way, but make it worse in other ways, a double bladed choice.
Why not? You could use them to be foundations for the tree? Why do you insist that our baseline abilities that have been part of our classes in some cases since vanilla have to be talents? What benefit is there?
Just give us a god damn argument, because Blizzard for sure won’t be able to make one, and I doubt neither can you. Because there is no reason other than laziness and lack of professional talent.
Maybe you should be. It’s not necessary, but that would unironically be one of the “easy” bandage fixes you could apply to this system. It’d introduce a massive amount of other problems, true, but then actually you would have genuine choice, unlike now.
The bottom of the tree shouldn’t be made of our baseline abilities and utility. It should be made of new talents, cool new ability changers etc, as described above. That’s how it should be.
No, what they need is prune 99% of the developers because they genuinely don’t know how to do their job.
Yeah, azerite armor felt about as fresh as a sunbaked can of beans after 8 years.
Covenants, Azerite armor, Corruptions and essences have been absolute and complete degenerate mess that I hope whoever designed those systems was fired and will never ever work in game design ever again.
Thanks for clarifying that to everyone.
Why have them as talents at all? Did soothe or Dash make druids overpowered or what? What’s the argument for having them as talents in the first place? Why have them as choices, when they clearly have no business being a choice against something like vortex, bash etc?
No, I’m not. I’m weighing things that have little to no weight of their own against things that will have weight in almost all situations.
A stun will be infinitely more useful in 99% of the cases you will encounter in the game than a dash or a soothe will be. Why soothe when you can just lock them down in the first place and guarantee the kill anyway?
It’s like you’re putting a car on the same line with a moped and asking the player to choose which one will they take. In 99% of the cases, the car is gonna win.
That is not a choice. It is a false choice.
Yeah exactly because he didn’t make that choice, Blizzard did.
He valued them so much that even when trying to prove a point that these talent trees are in fact full of freedom of choice, he picked the same talents in all 4 of them with little to no deviation.
Yes, thank you for confirming that.
It might as well have been Blizzard making the choice for him because the outcome would have been the exact same.
He doesn’t have to choose those now, so how in nine hells is his gameplay improving? He’s getting less than he currently has, and yet you are telling him that he should be thankful and happy about that?
How the hell are you going to sell that to 99% of the players?
But now you can get stuff back, you can’t everything at the same time, but that’s it.
Are you though? Have you made a spec and then compared to live what you get?
What are you losing and what are you gaining?
It’s not a lie, it’s common sense that the stuff at the base of the tree is going to be mandatory… anything you put there, absolutely anything is going to be mandatory, so why not put some stuff they wanted you to have anyway there?
It’s not laziness, there have to be boundaries, because it’d be even more impossible to balance everything if you were cherry picking only the best of the best, they’d have to nerf a lot of stuff to oblivion if they let you cherry pick everything you wanted.
What you put at the base of a tree is going to be taken 100% because you can’t advance without it… so ofc they’d put stuff they 100% wanted you to have baseline there.
No you shouldn’t, it’d cause even more balance problems and a lot of nerfs.
Like i said 2 times before, whatever is at the base is going to be what you get 100% of the time, because you have to start somewhere.
It’s always been the case that anyone can make stupid choices… there isn’t much changing there.
Unless everyone is going to have 100% of the same abilities… it isn’t true.
He made 4 separate talent trees, the choice ofc is going to be more in the lower half.
And ofc he’ll get most of the usual talents, he’ll get what he thinks is useful.
List all the abilities he has baseline, list what he has with the DF trees.
What is he losing and what is he gaining, that’s the bottom line.
He didn’t have every guardian defensive ability, so don’t exaggerate.
And you’d have 1 only in DF, since Verdant Infusion is a lego, you’d have lost that anyway…
But you can give feedback that they shouldn’t be pitted against each other in the tree.
What should be compared is baseline + talents in SL, versus baseline + talents in DF.
