oh, i missread what you said.
well, anyway, wow specs are exactly like that.
after you choose your specialization, you pick a build through talents.
That explains it… i guess.
And that’s what we’ll merrily do in DF, with more freedom than we have now, we’ll have as many builds as we want.
Loads of builds, different in purpose, size, weight, maneuver space, cargo load, stop the cap!, etc.
its like talking to a wall (or whatever the phrase is in english).
you just refuse to accept the fact that we will get a complex version of what we have now.
i said before, this is what will happen:
- there will be honeymoon phase and you will “fun fun fun”
- after a while you wont even look at it anymore and just have the points you picked months ago.
then you will think to yourself… “mmmm… it used to be simpler…”.
so you will come to the forum to complain (its here for that), and ill be here and link this thread to you. ill be like
and you’ll be like 
I’m not refusing to accept that… because i know that that’s what the new trees are.
A more complex version of what we have now.
Which will allow us to mix and match more than we can do now, giving us more freedom to make our own builds.
Simpler = more boring.
i dont know what you got that idea of complex = interesting. simpler = boring. its simply not true.
simpler, while reaching the same results as complex, is called efficient.
efficiency is always good.
and the reason talents are “boring” in wow is because unlike some other games, they have a limit at max level, which is quite low. and after you get there, it doesnt change throughout the entire expansion, unless you want to change spec. that is how wow was made and will never change.
diablo 3 has infinite levels. final fantasy 10 you get to have like a billion points and you can choose your spells with it. path of exile has like a ridiculous amount of points and trees and stuff.
because the games were developed differently from the core.
wow is NOT like this. wow talents are extremely static.
they are neither boring nor intereresting. they are simply ‘there’ to serve a purpose.
wow talents arent considered as content. you cant try to treat them as such.
No, it’s true, on live i have 7 choices to make.
In DF i have A LOT more to make, 61 in number to be more precise.
I can customize my builds better than on live.
no, you cant.
Open a talent calculator and click on it…
“lots of stuff” isnt interesting. its just confusing and time consuming.
if you find the idea of “lots of stuff” as interesting for the mere idea of “lots of stuff”, than you are gravely mistaken.
Nah, i can just comprehend complicated stuff more easily.
P.S. This isn’t complicated at all either. 
Not always.
It could be made even more simple and efficient than we have now.
Blizzard could remove the talent system completely and just give us the abilities they want us to have and tell us how to play. Simple, efficient and boring.
The current talent system cannot have the same amount of flexibility as the New/Old talent tree system. Because you only have 7 points to spend and you can only put in one per row.
You pick one talent the first row and the rest of that row becomes unavailable.
This does not happen in the new or old talent systems.
You could just fill up the first half of the tree completely and skip all the deeper talents.
You cant fill out the 2 and a half of the bottom rows in the current system.
Many argue that people will just look up a guide and copy builds from there.
And that is naturally gonna happen, it did back then, it happens now, it gonna happen in the future.
But back in the day we could actually see some pretty wacky builds that actually did fairly well. We have seen some of these during classic and cant wait to see them in Wrath. IMO Wrath was the best expansion for making fun and unique builds and I had a blast with it, still cant decide which to play in wrath classic yet.
Jeez is this still going on?
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so what will be a better way to go with talent trees then ? I am asking the question cuz I am curious . Not asking the question to bash you or anything .
Regarding feral, it should at least provide two options : direct damage build and strong dot build.
But that’s just two options / two talents, you’d say. And you probably could be right. But these two options could be broken in various parts that make sense of have a lot of synergies with other talents, depending how deep they are in the tree.
Basically, talents up in the tree (which requires to spend less points to obtain) should have a lot of synergy with other talents which are also up in the tree and also descendent talents which are deeper in the tree.
I’ll try to be more clear. That’ll help a lot if you have some knownledge in graph theory. If you don’t, I’ll try to explain what is required to understand what I mean.
In a tree, there are nodes and nodes have parents, children and siblings. They also have ancestors and descendants.
Parents of a node X are the nodes which are directly connected to that node X and are higher up in the tree.
Children of a node X are the nodes which are directly connected to that node X and are lower down in the tree.
Siblings of a node X are the nodes which share a parent with X.
Ancestors of X are nodes which are parents of X or are ancestor of any parent of X.
Descendants of X are children and descendants of the children of X.
What I’m suggesting is that any talent/node should have a strong synergy with their ancestors and some synergy with the siblings.
Moreover, talents deep in the tree should be more powerful and have strong synergy with their ancestors but low to no synergy with the rest of the tree.
Whereas, talents nearer to the to of the tree should have a synergy with practically anything that’s lower in the tree, but less and less synergy as you go down the tree (except maybe for their descendants).
Another way to put it could be the following :
- every talent has the same synergy-budget.
- that budget is being spent with the ancestors of that talent first, then with the descendants and the rest of the tree.
The consequence of this is that talents deep down in the tree have strong synergy with their ancestors and low to no synergy with the rest of the tree.
Talents at the top have synergy with almost anything with practically the same amount.
Talents in the mid of the tree have stronger synergy with their ancestors and lower synergy with talents which are not part of their lineage.
Right now, we don’t have that. Instead we have weird stuff like Berserk broken into 3 talents which are so far apart that picking them all (only to get the original berserk we have now) cost a lost of talents points that you could have spent elsewhere instead (theoretically).
Theoretically because, let’s be honest, there’s not many new stuff anyway. It’s not like we have a lot of choice like building a hearthstone deck. Right now it looks more like illusion of choice.
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Because you get to pick which ones you want. And there are plenty of extra things; not completely new things, sure, but cool stuff that were borrowed powers in the past or stuff that classes/specs had before Legion’s pruning. Those are not part of your ‘baseline’ abilities right now, so they ARE extras.
You are just looking at this completely wrong.
You want to have what you have NOW? Well… that was never going to happen, because right now you have 2 legendary abilities, 2 covenant abilities and a selection of Soulbind effects and on top of that there’s the tier set bonuses right now. Those are all going away when Shadowlands is over. They are NOT part of your character.
You are looking at the talent trees like you’re looking at borrowed power: Something that’s added on top of your baseline build. But that’s NOT what talent trees are or do.
They give you a build. Period. And you have a lot more choice how you actually want to make that build with those trees (except if you want all the stuff you have now, then you’re going to be limited in your choice - and that’s a self inflicted problem).
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But you didn’t do that. You took compared part of what we have in live to all we have in DL.
You missed a lot of conduits and legendaries.
And it’s most apparent in your build, which is btw absolutely non-sensical and no reasonable person would ever play it, that focuses literally on picking the most spells, without any focus on talents that improve those spells, so they’re not bad.
Quite a good example is Convoke. Although you claim to have picked it, so it’s like Live… you have way stronger version of Convoke on Live and making it comparable would mean you need to spend more, which you didn’t do, because it doesn’t fit your agenda.
No, talents are replacement for both baseline build (you basically have almost no baseline spells) AND the borrow power.
So you lost on two levels and you won’t even make it to what you had before. Not even close.
I took everything that is BASELINE on Live.
BASELINE, no borrowed power was taken into account.
When the expac is over, you’ll lose all that borrowed power.
All conduits, all covenants, all tier, all legos, everything.
What made it into the talent tree is extra, for you to pick from.
P.S. Also at lvl 60 you still have your borrowed power… so stop crying about “losing”, you ain’t losing crap.
Not true. They replace your baseline build.
The talent trees are not a replacement for borrowed power; there just isn’t borrowed power anymore, period (except for stuff like tier set bonuses and such).
Sorry. Factually not true.
You are STILL looking at this the wrong way.
In that wrong interpretation of the trees, yes you’re right. But that’s the same as a colourblind person saying: That colour is purple, while it’s in fact green. Yes, that person sees the colour as purple, but that doesn’t make it factually true.
Yeah, not really. It´s not very fresh at all. Not much has happened since legion. Removing half of our spellbooks and then drip feeding it back is hardly inspiring stuff. Classes are not good enough. Anything less than MoP quality and complexity is not acceptable to me.
I don´t even want to play the game cause the classes are so boring, pruned and uninspired in general. This was never the case until WoD and Legion destroyed it all with all out pruning.
Pick 1 spec of 1 spec, what did you lose since MoP and what did you gain? Make a list.