I don´t agree. MoP classes didn´t feel similar. You know feelings are subjective. Having fewer tools in combat makes for a boring game to me.
General sentiment favors MoP it seems.
I get that. Hence my earlier comment; we should probably just agree to disagree.
Disagreeing is fine.
It is, but according to the polls, the pruned versions of classes during WoD, legion and BfA seem to be much less popular than MoP. People seem to want more tools.
Some people.
My point stands: A few hundred people who are part of a very small particular subset of players who visit websites and post on forums about the game they play, do not represent the whole playerbase. They are a vocal minority. And we’ve seen how much damage a vocal minority can do when Blizzard listens to them.
You didnt had all the tools everyone also had, you had class specific situational abilities, like more totems for shamans. And abilities which made you move totems, or even mass move them. If you want diversity you want MoP.
1 Like
You only need 1000 (randomized) people for a poll to get reasonably accurate results. These polls together have 722 people, with MoP being absolutely dominant, with wotlk a clear 2nd as the most popular option and the post MoP, pruned, expansions much less popular. That surely counts for something.
Please find other polls that say differently, or ask around. You´ll see that MoP class design is very well regarded. I have done what I can.
Exactly, it wasn´t like classes had copypasted identical abilities at all. They all had their own unique flavor.
1 Like
Excellent, good point. Because MoP id also the expansion where leveling starts to fet dull, because you no longer gain something every level. Thats what the old talent tree did infinitely better.
However, the obvious solution to this would have been that they’d offer us a talent tree akin to legion artifacts, one that you will eventually when you reach max level fill up completely, just to give you something nice to progress with.
In addition to that, they could have just kept the current talent trees and added a row or two to it with completely new abilities.
Instead, what we got was a talent tree that has 80% false choices (e.g. you use it to build your baseline spec exactly as it is in SL), and the remaining 20% points are the ones that you are actually free to make.
Like, how many times do I have to say this? It seems to me that you guys are fair and fine about paying for 100% of the product, while only getting to play with 1/5th of it?
Whereas with the current trees, you get to pick 100% of the different choices. Doesn’t mean that those choices are all fair. Doesn’t mean that the system is flawless and doesn’t have deadweight options in it.
But it does give you 100% freedom in your talents. These new ones give about 20% of their whole point pool as genuine choices.
No i do not doubt anybody held you at a gunpoint and forced you to pick those talents, but they might as well have because you picked thesame choices anyways.
I mean for sure, you could have decided not to pick up frenzied regeneration. You could have also decided to go down the moonkin path as a feral. Hell, you could have gone to get hibernation too.
But. You. Did. Not. And neither did the other guy - And why would they? You’d have to be genuinely braindamaged to do that.
But since you praise ut so much that ut is such a great choice that people are allowed to make bad choices, I find it odd that you two, not once, made those “wrong choices” in the tree.
Almost as if somebody had already designed the path so that, you actually have no choice.
You are still expected to pick the vast majority of talents, passives and baseline abilities you currently have and use, and that is because the design of these classes has not and will not change one bit.
You have more choices, true. But those choices are not all free mor equal. The absolute vast majority of your “new” abilities you have to spend building your baseline spec.
Which you seem to think is a great thing, because in your naivete, you think that you will actually be able to build a distinctively different class or spec than you could in SL. You won’t be.
And that is, again, because the class design hasn’t changed at al. Therr is a reason Blizzard forces you to pick that permanent ghoul. There is a reason why Blizzard coerces you to forgo that moonkin path in the class tree as a feral druid, because it adds nothing to you whatsoever. Because it is a false choice- One that you seem to so praise for its innovativeness, when in truth it is laziness. Plain and simple.
That is why this talent system is objectively worse:
-
It lies about offering us more freedom of choice, when in truth there are clear cut obvious paths to choose from and only really the bottom end of the tree has choices that are genuinely free. An illusion of choice, plain and simple.
-
It claims to be new and innovative, when it is full of old stuff we currently or used to have, instead of cool nee innovative abilities.
-
While the current talent trees are also guilty of this, some of the choices in the talent tree are extremely biased and the choices are not at all on fair ground. See: Hibernate vs greater bash, for example. This is exaggerated by these choices being extremely fsr away from one another or habing very niche uses, leaving the players with less niche utility for no reason whatsoever other than mindlessly saying “it is your choice”, when it isn’t.
You can count and calculate the trees a million more times if you like, but you can not refute these points, and that is that.
You can’t refute them, because you follow them. You say there is no forced choice, yet you choose the tslents exactly I or anybody else would predict.
Your arguments are at complete odds with your actions.
You are seriously trying to tell me and everybody else here that if you took away from me parts of my car 8 years ago and now are offering them back to me, those are “new” things I should be thankful for?
And again, see above. Majority of the choices aren’t actual choices at all.
No, I am not.
I am not content with being given borrowed power back from two of the worst expansions this game has ever had and being told they are new and exciting, when in truth it is lazy.
I am not content with being lied to and being told that this tree offers me 100% choice, when the vast majority of it are false choices. And even when you can technically choose wrong, you would be an idiot to do so. So, false choices.
And finally, I am not content with being told that I can customize my class with these trees to a whole new level, when in truth they are using it as another excuse to prune minor, cool rpg stuff from classes like hibernate, and your class is gonna play exactly as it does in SL, because class design hasn’t changed at all.
You are completely wrong and people like you are exactly the reason why the game design is so degenerate these days.
A class should be defined snd built baseline by Blizzard.
Talents should be something you sdd ontop of it as choices you make, which you then use to dictate how do you eant your class to play within those boundaries Blizzard sets.
Now, I am not saying the current talent trees always get this right either. They don’t. But neither does this new one.
There is no choice fir example for UH to become a pet focused soec or a disease focused spec, or a hybrid of them.
There is no choice for feral to build to a more instant damage based, high burst class over bleed build and vice versa.
And there sure as hell wont be any other similar choices, genuine choices, for the other classes because that is actually hard work and Blizzard prefers to lie and do things the easy way.
Talents are one of your only ways to affect how your spec breaks the mold or is different from the other players. With this change, there wont be more difference. There will be less.
1 Like
Yeah, and the thematic and very useful lichborne for dks as well. Those really should be baseline I think. Too little is given baseline, for sure.
1 Like
Most things in the tree should be baseline. But if they did that, they would actually have to do some work and get creative!!
As if they are gonna do that.
I know, feels very lazy to me. Where is the new stuff?
I asked this earlier from the people in this thread but got no answers, but I will ask you again:
Why is it that you are so zealously afraid to demand the best from Blizzard? Have you truly become so complacent that after Legion, BFA and now SL, you have simply accepted that you can not demand from them masterpieces like Wotlk or MoP again?
1 Like
It offers more choice than you have now.
It’s the 1st draft… they just transposed abilities there that existed within the classes/specs.
You chose if you want/need the ability, nobody else.
If you don’t want hybernate because it’s situational… don’t get it.
Why waste points there?
I chose what i had on live to make the comparison easier.
I can make trees for PVP arenas, BG’s, Solo World general, Solo World tough rares, PVE Dungeons, PVE Raids. And you can make variations of all those based on preferences, based on fight needs.
But if we ahd it baseline ther ewould ahve to be something else ther ein the tree, maybe something new and cool, or a favorite from the past that was pruned, perhaps wwith a new twist? So much possibilities if they would let go of this obsession with limiting palyers excesively.
No, you don’t get to add abilities every single expac, it leads to bloat.
You have the abilities there to chose from them.
Classes aren´t bloated as they are, They are still pruned compared to MoP, or even Cata and wotlk. And the polls indicate MoP was a favorite time for class design for many. Anecdotally this is true as well.
That’s not how those numbers work. There’s very likely a lot (if not all) of overlap.
40% is not absolutely dominant. It means 60% of those people don’t agree that MoP had the best class design.
I don’t know why you’re still trying to convince me. I’m not going to agree with you based on a few polls on WoW websites.
By some. Sure. I’m not denying that.
I didn’t say they are ‘new’. But they are things that you would normally not have access to anymore. But you will now. So that’s a good thing.
Yes you are. And your car analogy shows that.
Borrowed power is NOT part of your car. Borrowed power are the fuzzy dice hanging from your mirror and the stuff you have lying around in your glove compartment.
I didn’t call them new. Did Blizzard?
Also: those powers had some cool stuff among them. I’m glad we’re being given a chance to make those things part of our build as a baseline. To me that’s fun.
Who said that? Who said 100%?
Of course there’s no 100%. To get certain things, you’ll HAVE to pick certain other things, that’s how skill trees work and have worked in the past.
Making a BAD choice shouldn’t be possible, sure. But making a slightly sub-optimal choice is FINE and doesn’t make anyone an idiot if that’s how they prefer to play.
ANd that’s speculation at this point. You can make this a legitimate complaint once you’ve actually tried it and tried a future version of it. Things WILL change. We’re not even into alpha yet.
Also: As far as MY preferred class/spec goes, I’m perfectly fine with how it plays at the moment. If I can change small things here and there than that’s cool. I’ll have to wait for the BM talent tree to be playable for me before I can make a solid opinion on this though.
Don’t be so aggressive and insulting. People like you are why the social contract had to be a thing.
Agree to disagree. Me building my own class is FUN.
That’s why I’m looking forward to trying these talent trees for real.
Only for metaslaves.
How many buttons should each class have?
It´s not about the buttons, but the gameplay interactions, but mages, for example, could surely use a few more.
MoP is a good guideline, for sure.
It’s also about buttons… there needs to be a limit, we’re not all octopuses.