Sure. Perhaps we can conduct a new straw poll on the subject some day?
Best case scenario: Blizzard makes a poll you have to complete before being able to log into the game. But yeah, that’s not going to happen.
Why does it matter though?
As long as the new system is fun and works, that’s all that matters, right?
If you really want MoP so badly, wait for them to skip Cata and go to ‘MoP Classic’ (I really don’t see them doing a Cataclysm Classic).
Yes, of course. I want it to be as fun as possible though, not just good enough.
I don´t think MoP classic will ever be a thing, sadly. Would be great if it were to be though, so people that didn´t play mop could experience the class design themselves.
It could happen if they were to put their pridefulness aside. That would be fantastic. It is good info to have.
You know how blizz-polls go. You end up with by far the worst dungeon for M+ for a season 
I have to say that while I don’t PvP and I did not play WoW during MoP, that much CC on one character, especially a DPS, doesn’t seem fun to play against. If other classes were like this as well it sounds like you’d just get stunlocked to death.
Even today you see the occasional complaints about rogue chain CC, I don’t want to imagine what PvP looked like back then.
It was much better back then. Don´t be so afraid of cc. What would pvp be without cc? It is not the evil you imagine. There were more cc breaks as well. People will always complain about something.
Ask the top pvpers which expansion was the most fun, and you´ll get a lot of support and praise for MoP. A lot. I watch a lot of pvp streams and MoP is so well regarded among pvpers.
Remember though that mage was quite fragile, so had a lot of cc to compensate, also required set up to do its burst. Not as brainless as todays classes which are much more straight forward in general. You need to think holistically and remember that power is always relative.
I’m not.
I never said no CC (that’s false dichotomy), but when you can take your hands off your keyboard and it doesn’t matter because you’re stunlocked that’s not fun. They should move CC mostly to tanks.
Somewhat irrelevant as most people who play it aren’t the top PvPers. You can’t balance your game only around the top percentile, otherwise you just alienate the casual player.
Did casual players also like PvP in MoP?
I am glad you asked!
So, you’ve been proven wrong about what class design was objectively liked more by playerbase.
You have now been proven wrong about covenant choice and by that note, also your notion of metaslavery- When, in truth, the vast -vast- majority of people always take the strongest option.
Maybe they are metaslaves, maybe not. But they sure as hell outnumber people like you.
It’s not a good thing. Those things should have been baked into our classes, or indeed offered as talents over the last 8 years, and thosse that weren’t popular removed, obviously. Instead of, you know, giving us 8 years of borrowed power garbage.
What you are talking about is cosmetics. The fuzzy dice hanging from your mirror does not affect your car’s performance worth a spit.
Conduits, legendaries etc absolutely -do- affect your performance, so they are not comparable at all to cosmetics being removed. They are part of your car, Blizzard has just simply taken pieces and parts off your car every expansion start the last 3 expansions and then slowly sprinkled them back every patch.
And I do not need to be nor should I be glad about them being added back.
They called the system new and innovative, so adding old stuff to it without almost no new nodes by definition is a lie.
don’t care + didn’t ask
The people arguing that this system is so much better because it gives more choice- Whilst, at the same time, having no cognitive dissonance about the current talent trees, for better or for worse, offering you 100% choice- Whereas the new talent trees only allow you max 20% of the trees choices being impactful.
Those are your arguments, not mine. You’re the ones saying it has more choice, when objectively, as the above argument shows, that is not the case.
Every single one of those current 7 choices you make with talents is a choice you can make. 100%. But not every choice in this new talent tree is a choice.
So you can’t on one hand argue it has more choice, but then at the same time argue that some choices are not actual choices. Choose one.
But, as your fumbling shows, they are indeed no choices at all. They are false choices.
The fact that the talent tree is a tree is not the problem. The problem is how it branches and what “choices” are actually in those nodes. See again the aforementioned ACTUAL choice examples.
You are objectively an idiot if you get some of the talent choices over the much more obvious, better ones. Such as the moonkin form path as a feral druid.
To quote you: prove it. I have 8 years of expansions behind me where I have been right about every single game design element and its disaster, ranging from Azerite armor to legion pvp templates to essences and corruptions.
You have nothing but hope. That’s all.
Ah yes the eternal copepost of “its just a alpha/beta/prepatch”. How many more development cycles do you need to accept thats not how it works?
Nah they will instead not change unless we bang the drums and shout loud enough at the devs, it certainly won’t change by saying “yeah this is fine can you buff x choice to make it better”. You’d have to rip this thing up root and stem and start from a clean table, which they won’t do.
That doesn’t matter at all. Blizzard said we will be able to change and customize our classes like never before- Thats their promise. And I intend to keep them accountable for that.
I’m not being aggressive and insulting. I am being truthful. And if that social contract is so great, how come I am able to post this apparently bad stuff here?
Sure, if we actually got to build our own classes! But we don’t.
Why do you ask me? You have shown it to us yourself, alongside everybody else. You all go down the same path on the build- And I would too, if I made that! Because those small variations you make are the only real choices there are, there is no choice and I’d be an idiot not to take them. Just as you would be, which is exactly why you picked them.
So they are, word on word, not real choices. They are false ones.
I have made suggestions several times in this thread, but you have conveniently every single time just passed by them.
That doesn’t prove anything. You’re the one telling me that Blizzard does these massive sweeping, huge changes in development- Not me.
So why is it then that the number one complaint the devs get is that they do not listen? Seems a bit contradictory to me if they are listening so much, as you claim!
But hey, you’re the one who made the argument, so prove it.
Yet that’s the exact same situation. You would pick that 100 000 euros every single time over the other one, unless you were stupid.
People can and did compare them just fine without your example, you just brought them up to try and make a point nobody even contested- But as I have said, you miss the forest from the trees.
Yeah you can, but if you do that, you can’t have the talents and abilities blizzard expects you to have. You are, of course, free to gimp yourself however much you like, but since you have failed to do that even in your own examples, there’s no need to argue about this further.
That’s not even mentioning how you’re leaving out the fact that many of the talents are either outright getting removed, or they are now spread in such a way that to get them you have to sacrifice a great deal of things you currently have, or the fact that you indeed never went down those routes a single time in your examples, mystically.
Your actions speak louder than your own words.
You don´t even pvp, so how would you know? It is equally not fun, if not worse, to don´t have tools available in any given situation to respond appropriately, and those situation occur much more often today with smaller toolkits. Same thing you could say but occurs more often but because of excessive gaps in toolkits.
I think pvp is much worse now than in MoP. No question at all. In MoP, as a fire mage, I NEVER felt that I had to throw my hands in the air, I always could look back and go, hmm I could have done this or that better, used this ability earlier or later, there was so much variety and different interactions. Pvp seems almost scripted now compared to then. Thats´s the primary reason I don´t pvp very much anymore, the feeling of being powerless cause my toolkit is insufficient.
I played a lot of other classes as well, and they all felt great in pvp. They knew what they were doing back then.
Well, i’ll tell you you’re blind right now, there are a great deal of choices to make in the new trees.
You not recognizing them shows how limited you are.
What build did you tell me to make?
I said they make changes during development, if you think the positioning and what talents are there now will remain until the end of development for DF, it shows that you don’t think at all.
I’m picking Innervate over Maim in PVE build if i’m around.
I’m picking Furor for PVP some time, and not Typhoon as feral. Sometimes i’ll pick Typhoon and not Heart of the Wild for PVP.
Wow look, different builds!
You and others that are ill-informed said that you;re losing more than you gain.
I proved that you’re gaining a lot more than you lose.
What does that mean?
It means i can forgo even more of the abilities i have on live for OTHER abilities.
My actions?
You’re the one here who got proved wrong.
You’re gaining more abilities than you lose if you go for the same one.
You’re gaining even more different abilities, if you go for different abilities.
Instead of matching live, you can get other abilities and increase the gameplay difference between live and DF.
The DF trees are so amazing.
Look at what Blood gains:
Now look at the Feral tree gains too:
Simply amazing, can’t wait!
Oh and i can give up some of that stuff i gained, for other things!
And i can also give up some of the old stuff i have, for other things too!
Imagine complaining about gaining so many things, among them even straight up gaining 4-5 more talents from live and the ability to change your base kit more. 
Absolutely ridiculous complaining from you.
Because the feeling of being stunlocked to death is universal, no matter the game. In Heroes of the Storm there was a time when they had to nerf all stuns pretty much across the board because CC felt a bit too oppressive back then.
Also, if DPS have both damage and CC what is the tank supposed to bring to the table besides just being a damage sponge? You can see in Overwatch 2 that they remove most CC from non tanks.
The idea is mostly universal that in a DPS/Tank/Healer type of PvP game, the DPS brings the damage, tank brings control and survivability and healer brings healing and support. No wonder tanks feel unnecessary in WoW PvP when the other roles already bring the CC.
OK but is the lack of CC to blame? From what I hear it’s swamped with Orcs and Humans because CC is still a major contributor (but whether or not racials should play such a major role is a different discussion altogether).
I have explained why. Smaller toolkits leads to more scripted pvp. Can add that reliance of major cooldowns to do damage adds to this. Look at fire mage combustion for example, you do nothing outside of that cd, and it takes absolutely no set up as well, just press it and go ham. Too easy to execute.
In mop you had to set up your damage, by using frost spells to set up shatter as well as get procs beforehand, then combine it with alter time and Deep Freeze for maximum effect. Combustion was a dot that was dependant on your ignite, which required procs/set up to become powerful, which again could be combined with alter time. It was quite complex, but very rewarding to pull off.
We will never see the heights of MoP again sadly. It was very much not a case off haha, I cc you to death and kill you without any type of skill, and you have no recourse. That was not the experience of MoP pvp. I assure it was very very good.
That’s not what I said at all. I said once you reach max level, you are done. There is no AP grind or other such. It’s just as I said, something that grows with you as you level up.
You can do those decisions with the current talent tree just fine though. They could do better I agree, but adding two more rows would simply have fixed the issue and replacing dead weight talents with better ones would have sealed the deal.
Sure, but they don’t. In fact, they don’t seem to be adding much of any new abilities.
This could, again, be done with just a few more rows to the current talent tree.
Look, I’m not praising the current talent trees either. They’re obviously not a one-size-fits all solution, but everything you describe here can be and could have been done in that model, no problem.
Blizzard is trying to frame this new talent tree as being uniquely capable of this and somehow better, when in truth the facts have shown this is, at best, ± 0 deal (in which case you can ask why waste dev time in it) or outright negative, as the actual choices vs false choices have shown.
… As opposed to just having them baseline to your class? In what world would you care about changing talent trees during leveling?
I make way more tougher decisions- As you do, with the current talent trees. Also, choices like hibernate vs geater bash are no real choices, as the example about 100 000 euros vs 100 euros well demonstrates.
I do not see how my gameplay will be improved / better if at the start of every encounter I am expected to change and swap my talents to be 1% more effective.
So why not just have them all, if you’re anyway expected to try and play with all of them?
What benefit is there for a player to manually change their talent tree and pick hibernate for a specific situation that comes up maybe once in a lifetime, over them just having that choice available to them and them being able to choose whether they want to bother using the time to cast on it, or continue with whatever they are doing now?
And yet, everyone magically seems to gravitate for the same paths 
No, that’s the thing. I do recognize them exactly for what they are: False choices, and your own actions alongside everybody elses in this thread has proven that to be true, 100%.
None?
I don’t care what build you make, I stated that I have made several suggestions on how to actually make these trees with actual choices, e.g. the UH one.
No, it shows I have seen all the past development cycles, and so has the majority of the playerbase. We’ll believe it when we see it, and until it is so, we have no reason to believe anything changes.
Yeah, because those are fair(er) choices. But a choice between abilities like hibernate and the vast majority of the other things you’d be giving up is not.
Which is still true.
Yeah, when you leave out all the bits and parts of the argument that’d prove you wrong, true.
Yeah, just like you could pick up the balance tree path as a feral druid, but somehow magically you, me, or anybody else never did that.
Instead I proved you wrong.
Yeah I gain a grand total of 3 exciting run of the mill borrowed power choices from the past 8 years instead of anything new, over making actual 7 important choices I currently make. Can you feel my excitement, lol.
Yeah but magically none of us seem to be going for them and are magically picking more or less the same build(s), especially at the start and middle of the trees. Just by chance.
Yeah you can. You are also more free to make wrong choices, but then again, that is your whole selling point of this new system, no?
You’re gaining things you used to have and you’re being thankful for that. Like I said, maybe you’ve become so content with being offered nothing new + innovative, in which case you can’t be helped and simply I will keep proving you + others wrong and getting the changes I want, just like I did with pvp gear and many other things I have gotten.
In case you missed it… blurry vision?
I didn’t miss it. The same points apply as before.
Idk what points you mean.
Seems clear enough, the new talent trees are simply amazing and offer to change your kit a lot more than you can on live. AND you gain lots of stuff.
Can’t wait for the other reveals!
The same ones I gave your feral example. You’re trying to sneak in covenant and other borrowed power passive bonuses as talent choices, when they either are or have been part of the class before. That’s not adding anything new.
You’re trying to say that talent like “increases leech / ability damage / healing by x amount” when they are all things that could be done by simply tweaking numbers of said abilities, they are not actual ability nor talent gains.
If you add those to the conversation, you are left with exactly:
Being able to (theoretically) pick 1 more covenant ability.
Crimson Rune Weapon
Shattering bone
Minus of course Control undead and Lichborne.
vs current 7 talent choices.
I could have included some of the talents for your argument too, but it’d not matter. The number still adds up below 7. I mean, sure, you can pick more, but you are also free to be stupid, but you have demonstrated repeatedly that you aren’t, so that points moot anyway.
It seems clear enough instead to me that you leave out things to try and win and argument. But, since that list just allows me to point these things out, that’s not happening.
If done correctly (I don’t know the classes for the examples well enough to look at those with an informed gaze) they can have branches of the tree that build to something rather than 6 or 8 individual talents.
There could be a branch that builds to Primal Elementalist at the top but the points spent en route to this could have had minor buff to my Elementals, it could be a choice between an increase to DPS or increase HP. It could reduce the CD or increase duration.
There would be a sense of progression whilst leveling too.
Another branch could be about Nature damage and Lightning Bolt cast time or damage en route to Stormkeeper.
It’s kind of like the old days of Specialising in an area of the Class although back then it was more about specialising in Healing or Ranged or Melee (for Shaman).
Not sure if this is how the trees will be built though, I’m waiting for Shaman trees to see.