Where are you having less abilities than on live?
I’m still waiting for that bloody list.
It’s in development, it will change, i already proved it to you with Shadowlands development patch notes linked above.
Yes you can voice your concerns, new talents? Sure ask for them, i want new stuff to chose from as well.
Going back to the trees we have now with less choice? Nah, that’s going backwards.
I want to get some stuff from Prot and Holy trees as ret, current talent trees don’t allow that.
if you think design of talent trees chase away millions of players you are dead-wrong.
there are plenty of reasons why people left after wotlk. things like age groups, popularity of MMOs in general, time, consoles’ capabilities increased and so their exclusive games, etc.
anyone who says “wow is dying because of X” because it happened in a certain year, is just mixing coincidence with the things he doesnt like. but it doesnt make it true.
Classes felt complete in MoP. They haven´t felt complete since. That´s the issue and the issue won´t be resolved in Dragonflight. Now stop arguing for us to accept a lesser experience cause you don´t understand this basic concept. Atahalni is absolutely 100% correct.
Having options in combat is every bit as important as options before combat, i.e. talent choices. Having to choose between 2 or 3 tools is not necessarily better than just having them all available at the same time. You always felt you had options in MoP combat, that´s why it felt so good, you always thought to yourself that you could have done better in hindsight, because of the completeness of toolkits.
This fallacy that classes “shouldn´t have everything” - which of course no one had, led to the prunings of WoD and Legion and we ended up with severely degraded and one dimensional class design and combat. Suddenly only warriors should have execute bye bye kill shot etc. Classes were stripped of tools left and right so someone else could feel special. It has proven to be the wrong approach, needless to say.
MoP was peak WoW class design, no doubt.
What are you losing now?
What are you gaining?
Show me a list so i can see.
Show me the talent tree you’ve made.
You keep saying stuff about MoP… does the current tree seem like MoP to you?
Then why are you adverse to changing it?
You’ll have more choices to make for what utility you have, than you do now.
Who are you talking to? No I like the concept of the new trees, but many classes still need a bigger toolkit. We need more abilities from the past returning, and new abilities as well. Just copypasting existing shadowlands design isn´t gonna cut it. Some classes are worse than others, I´d argue mage needs quite a bit added to their toolkit for example.
I was talking to you, since you agreed with Atahalni who likes the current trees better than the new ones.
And you’ll have more abilities with the new trees to pick from.
Seems like we’re going in the right direction.
Is this over? No it’s not, it’s still in development.
Druids getting Mark of the Wild back… albeit a bit changed shows hope for utility coming back in some way or another.
I don´t like the current trees no, the new ones have more potential. I do agree with him that MoP was the peak of WoW class design.
MoP showed what class design in WoW should be. You should feel complete, always having a tool available to deal with situations. I´d like to see that return.
What you have available IN combat is more important than what you choose to have available. Ergo, we should have more baseline abilities.
What’s the point?
You have 31 points to spend, you make 10 abilities baseline, you cut 10 points. You end up with 21 points to spend.
But with that you also cut the possibility to shift your choices in regards to what you have baseline.
The end result is the point. Classes need to feel complete and good to play, regardless of the talent system. Like MoP.
The talent system defines the spec… now the talent system defines the spec more AND the class.
It’s an upgrade to what you can chose to have.
The end point will be that you have more say in how your class/spec is designed with the new trees.
Yes, I agree, but I still want a more full toolkit in the end. Hopefully we will. Deep Freeze and Blazing Speed need to return. Mage is terribly boring right now.
Though, they have already said we should end up with as many tools as a max lvl shadowlands character, and that´s not good enough for all classes in my opinion. Some feel more or less complete (with pvp talents) and others feel very bare bones.
You keep talking about how you can have less? You can have different.
I went on my DK to try and replicate my live build on the preview talent trees and I am able to get everything back and more.
But naturally I would not want everything back as they were, why would I go with the talents blizzard forced me to pick in shadowlands?
The way I view it in live is, blizzard decided where to put all our talent points and then left us with picking 7 out of 21 on our own.
If I go for a Breath of sindragosa build on my frost dk do you think I would keep my talent points in improved frost strike that blizzard has forced us to do or will i take them and put them in a talent that actually synergises with my build?
What we currently have as baseline is not what’s gonna be optimal in DF.
Apart from the 7 talents we pick now we cant control what abilities gets upgraded or not, blizzard is spending our points in these ability rank ups for abilities we might not wanna use.
The top ranking frost death knights atm have such high uptime in breath of sindragosa that they barely even cast frost strike, atleast one of them had only 1 single cast of frost strike during the whole almost 4 minute fight.
I get that the pathing makes choices limited in the next expansion, but atleast you get a choice.
And as a fury warrior, even without seeing the talent tree, it is gonna be a huge improvement.
Whilst MOP is highly regarded by many (including myself) I’m not sure that it’s due to the Talent Trees in that expansion.
MOP had other ways of building your Spec. Primarily Reforging. But we had more enchants and gems back then too.
I remember back then (when I read guides more than now) there being a Mastery Build and a Haste Build for Shaman. Depending on which stat you stacked you choose different Talents. Both were viable, I think one was better ST and one slightly better AoE.
I don’t really care much whether we get simpler MOP style Talent system or more intricate Talent Trees. But I do want there to be choices and varying playstyles.
Talent choices are important for this but I do think we need to look at gear, enchants, gems and other ways we build our player power. It’s harder to select your stats on gear these days, you wear whatever you’re lucky enough to get hold of. I don’t really do enchants and gems anymore. I stick Celestial Guidance on my weapon and that’s about it, if I have a gem socket on a piece of gear then I will consider how long I’ll have that item, if it’s going to be months then I might go find a gem (cheap one).
All our power progression eggs have been put in the Borrowed Power basket for the last few expansions and all other ways of building our characters seems to have suffered.
Getting rid of the borrowed power systems gives us the chance to get back to more traditional character development.
Of course it´s not. MoP was great because of the great design and vastness of abilities given baseline. The talent system itself was uninspired to say the least. We can have the best of both worlds, great class design and great talent system.
You had no hybrid specs in MoP for obvious reasons, and that was not good.
That has not been shown at all. Let’s make some actual talents and check that out, shall we?
With the current talent trees that we have I will assume I’m playing a feral druid then this right here is what I would run in raids (the website always counts two balance abilities when you like, just ignore those):
(https://mythictrap.com/dragonflights-talents?c106=neytql_2dua6t_18yp8h&c103=x0znr9_j5mezl_0)
This right here are my talents for fortified m+ weeks:
(https://mythictrap.com/dragonflights-talents?c106=neytql_2no9at_2yy9s&c103=x401lc_5lc3lx_1)
These for tyranical and lower keys where stuff dies too fast for your bleeds:
(https://mythictrap.com/dragonflights-talents?c106=neytql_2no9at_2yy9s&c103=iyksgl_j5me75_0)
These for the healer feral m+ build which is hella fun (might need some optimization and it keeps taking away the 3 points I put into increased healing):
(https://mythictrap.com/dragonflights-talents?c106=necbv0_-f8fxm7_16ik41&c103=iyksgl_5vboy1_0)
The m+ builds would also change if we are running a dungeon with no curses of course but just looking over the trees I can count about 28 talents which I pretty much always take and the rest is up to preference/balance. That’s not even half of the points. I could actually change some points around and get some owlweaving in there. Don’t really like that playstyle though so I left it out. Also don’t play pvp so not sure what you would take there.
And that’s just feral who I think needs the most improvement out of the druid spec trees. Guardian, which I play the most, has sooo many possible builds it’s crazy. They pretty much took everything that bear can do now and just made it better. I’m really looking forward to my full arcane bear boy in raid and thrash/shred machine in m+!
People keep treating these talent trees as a new endgame system, wanting it to add onto your level 60 character, instead of a new system that you get at level 10 and involves the entirety of your characters. You used to get some spells as you level now you get them from your talents. Woopitidu. Before you allways had everything now you choose. Some paths you always go through for certain playstyles that’s how talent trees work in every game ever that had talent trees.
I seem to remember them saying something about being able to share builds as well with people, linking them in chat for example.
Hopefully there’s 2 more previews coming tonight and 1 of them is paladin!
But if i were to bet… paladin is coming in near the last of the previews. 
hybrid builds are bad, they were mostly unused. which is why they removed them.
I pray we get more today aswell. Please let it be warrior, I need confirmation that I no longer have to choose between double charge and stun!
I’m hoping i don’t have to chose 2 charges of Divine Steed versus lower CD on defensives… that was an annoying row to have.
Warrior and Paladin previews tonight! I’m also hoping there will be more than 2 classes… 6~ weeks for all classes is very long.