That was not Zul, but general Jakra’zet.
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So…G’huun erupted because of the Horde? Zul wasn’t wilful and given a fleet back in Cataclysm? Zandalar wasn’t sinking into the sea during the Cataclysm? Blood trolls were assaulting its borders and infiltrating its city because of the Horde?
Zul rebelled because he considered Rastakhan a failure. Not because of the Horde.
And as Medard already said, that was not Zul. Zul was saved by the Horde. This was Jakra’zet.
I mean, you are burying your own argument here. “The Horde was the final straw for the plotters to start something”.
They were plotting for the kicks before the Horde arrived, apparently. They learned how to kill and leech Loa for the kicks too.
Reading this post of yours, one would think Zandalar was perfect until the Horde arrived.
You are fundamentally wrong. Since the Cataclysm, Zul wanted a great unified troll Empire. The rebellion was the consequence of that. Not because the Horde arrived.
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If that being the case, Silvermoon should not be standing anymore. Right?^^
And Zul. Before he stabbed Rastakhan and joins his co-traitors he says so.
I merely said that the Horde were the final straw for the plotters to execute their plans.
And even that isn’t true.
Ok, let’s agree to disagree.
Fine by me.
Why? Amani aren’t part of the Horde.
And you see, there are some perks coming when you choose to stand as allies, as opposed to being steadfast enemies. Stuff can be overlook for friends.
If a friend owes me money, I may or may not feel like pardoning him. But if that’s the case with a stranger, or someone I disliked, rest assured they wouldn’t hear the last of me.
This is all hypothetical, but allied kingdoms are more prone to overlook slights between them, than those with enemy ones.
Warsong Gulch happened before those negotiations, And it wasn’t Horde’s fault that these negotiations were ceased.
Both Horde and night elves were played out by 3rd party.
All I am saying is that there was plenty potential for hostilities between the two, without the night elven factional affiliation.
I’m not arguing that, I am arguing that Horde always wanted to conquest entire Kalimdor and didn’t try other approaches to solve their problems.
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I didn’t say Horde. I said Horde leaders, examples being Garrosh and Sylvanas.
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It shouldn’t but for different reasons. They Migrated to Outland in WC3. And then we have shower of Retcons called TBC : /
Again you are missing full picture by splitting the parts. Like incase with “Iron Capital”. I don’t mean that Night Elves need orcs city, with orcish flags on it. What I mean in the big picture is that orcs got their capital became stronger even after defeat.
Give Night Elves a big capital city which will be even better than Darnassus, and Nelf fans will be happy. In other words treat Night Elves like you do with orcs…
I will try to restore big picture by answering on your first answer, on those cutted parts 1 by 1.
Warcraft III introduces Nelfs as hostile near savage people who choose to shoot first and talk after. They are hostile to the Alliance and Horde until they figure out they were being invaded by the Burning Legion.
And while Nelfs might have been the first druids, they were not the only ones who practiced that sort of magic. So I’m not sure how entitled you must be to feel like you were robbed of a class when nelfs still are the face of the druid class in WoW.
Yes, Nigh Elves where savage, but also wise guardians of the Nature. They were shown as some spirits of the earth, of nature, and that was their unique thing. Druids was their unique class. While other races hade mages as unique thing, paladins, shamans e.t.c, druids was Nelfs.
On Classic Alfa only Alliance had Druids. Only Night Elves could be Druids. Also Moonglade was Night Elves capital.
Suddenly Classic began, where also taurens can be druids. Even more, taurens became also the same Nature fanatics. Even more, Night Elves capital Moonglade was transformed in to neutral city of druids, where half of population are taurens.
Night Elves was first race in game that have lost it’s unique. I agree later some other races also did, but I was saying about that because in Classic Night Elves got their first punch from Blizzard side.
I’m not sure why Nelfs need to take so many punches from stuff nobody else seems to be bothered with. Arthas was a human prince, Kel’thuzad was a Dalaran wizard, Kil’jaeden was an eredar leader and so was Archimonde. Gul’dan was an orc and so was Garrosh. The whole Dark Iron race was hostile to both factions. Yet somehow the nelfs are insulted again.
Here you have thrown away the issue with Blood Elves. At the beginning of the addon Nigh Elves from good persons, protectors of the nature, were transformed into evil conquers, who want to genocide entire race, just because they hate Arcane, and Blood Elves are arcane fanatics.
Later on without a reason Night Elves have lost their War 3 unique class Demon Hunters in to madness. Without a real reason Illidan became evil. In Arthas case there was Frostmorne. In Gul’Dane case there were punches and humiliations from his tribe. But in Illidan case there was no real reason. Blizzard in that addon just show Night Elves as bad guys, without a real reason, just to add Blood Elves to the Horde and make War 3 hero as addon main villan. Just because plod demands.
In other words Blizzard have used Night Elves as punching bags for the first time.
So the Nelfs ally themselves with the Alliance who uses mages, they accept sanctuary in Dalaran who are all mages and it’s somehow insulting that they accept the highborne back in their ranks? Weren’t you just mentioning how upset you are cause half of the nelf race is neutral and does not care about you? Give me a break.
Again why is it a problem when a nelf turns evil but nobody bats an eyelash when some other character of any other race turns evil? There were plenty of non nelf guys turning nasty in that expansion, why exactly are nelfs special?
Because being arcane haters was their unique thing. In BC Night Elves were trying to genocide Blood Elves race, just because they were Arcane fanatics. And now suddenly Night Elves have trow half of their culture away and took mages back.
Again you have thrown away my message about Night Elves religion in this message. I will remind one Classic quest in Alterac. Horde trolls were trolling Night Elves by saying that their religion is a lie, that they are not god chosen race, that they are not created by the Elune, that they are just a trolls. Night Elves gave a quest to kill those trolls as revenge for those words. That how it was important for Nelfs.
In story Magasine Blizzard decided to be on trolls side. They confirm that Night Elves were not created by the Elune. And that was another hit to Nelf uniqueness. From god chosen race, in to Magic Trolls.
Even more. Blizzard have remembered a whine from Nelf fans about that, and made a trolling quest near Suramar in Legion. To renew old wound, just for story.
Regarding Fendral, I mentioned him because he was Classic Hero of Night Elves race. He was a racial leader for 3 addons, for 6 years. For Example Garrosh was leader of orcs only for 2 addons, for 4 years.
In Garrosh case forum was drown in Horde tears when he bacame evil. Blizzard had to say apologies to fans. Now when some Horde chars became evel, forum screams “Coomon, not Garrosh thing again”, and its ok. But when Night Elves start to whine, like in case with Delaryn and Sira, people saying that we need to shut up…
It wasn’t just Garrosh, it was the combined forces of the Horde. I get it that you think nelfs are just that damned good but they were facing the combined might of the Horde and eventually, when the rest of the Alliance joined the Nelfs, the Horde got pushed back.
Thing is not about that this happened, but how it happened. Everyone were preparing for the worst. But Night Elves instead of guarding the borders kept forces in Capital City. Garrosh made a rogue attack, making Night Elves shown incompetent. Later on Tyrande was almost killed by the orcs rookie archer, she was shown incompetent.
After that Varian came and save the day. A wolf from Tyrandes dream, came to save Night Elves. All the book was about that!
In other words, the King that have returned need to be show as good leader of the Alliance. Because Blizzard was preparing him as counter against Garrosh. Blizzard did not hide that. They just use Night Elves as punching bags, just to start the war. Nelfs were used to show big loses, and how human potential is good.
Your classic leader who was already established as a villain.
He wasnt. He was shown as radical fan of his race. He created Teldrassil because his race was suffering from immortality lose. He did this against Aspects restriction just for his race needs. You can read that in Nelf Classic quests. Or a book where Maieve was killing Highbornes in Darnassus and was trying to murder Malfution. Read about how bad Nelfs was feeling after immortality lose.
Also he did not want to forgive Horde for Ashenvale forest, to leave dead without revenge, while Tyrande wanted a peace, she was closing eyes on new Horde attacks at the border.
But Malfurion need to be awaken, because a story with Hyjal was about to happen. There were no place for 2 Nelf powerful druid leaders in the world. So only in WOTLK Blizzard wrote a book, where Fendral was transformed in to villan. Our racial protector. And instead we get Malfurion who was neutral till BfA.
Sorry to break it to you, but Tyrande was always an insolent brat who thought she knew best. It was kind of odd that she actually listened to Varian when I expected her to chastise him and go crazy on the enemy and lose. Could it be that she learned something at last?!
No she wasn’t. She was wise leader, and you can read War of the Ancient book about that.
Also in Interview Blizzard told sorry about that scenario. They did not hide the fact that they use Tyrande as Punching Bag. They needed to show a wise Hight King of the Alliance, but they did not think how that will hit Tyrandes reputation.
Blizzard did say sorry for showing Tyrande as incompetent, but that sorry did not work, and you are the proof of that.
Look, in case of other races there was always a balance. When bad things happened, there was always a good things after. When some race was shown incompetent, later that race was shown competent.
But in Night Elves case Blizzard show them incompetent for some times, but they did not want to spend effort to show them competent after. Ballance was ruin. And now people like you says - “Hey, but they always were incompetent, why are you complain?”…
I think you mean WoD. And guess what wash happening?! The orcs were being crapped on for the second expansion in a row while the Horde characters were being led around by a human mage part of a faction that broke their neutrality to favor the Alliance just a while back. That expansion could have entirely not had the Horde faction participate and it wouldn’t have made a difference. Orc fans saw many of their favorite characters killed off like trash mobs (like Doomhammer who was killed off so casually they had to actually change the way he dies), not to mention the large numbers of orcs joining the Legion despite knowing the consequences. But hey, a nelf turned evil.
Yes, orcs fans where complaining, and nobody told them that they were not right. But what about Night Elves? They have also stories with the past. We also had to fight against our heroes of the past.
But regarding that concrete hero, there is a reason why I mention her. We have entered Draenor world with a group of heroes. All of those heroes later became key heroes of the world like Lady Leadrin. But only Night Elves hero became evil, and we had to kill her. Why it always had to be Night Elves hero?
And also she was not just some ordinary hero, she was Nelfs Warden. Just a reminder, wardens are Night Elves fanatics, racists. Any of Night Elves can turn back against their own race, but not Wardens. So that was a punch to another Nelf unique thing.
In fact Maiev decided to free the demon hunters after Illidan’s prison-crystal was stolen, since the warden prison was overrun with demons.
That the point. Illidan and Demon Hunters, those who were War 3 heroes of Night Elves race were not just killing their Night Elves sisters, but also killing their souls!
And Maieve, that Maieve we know, Nelf racist, just forgives everything…
Incompetent? It shows Tyrande actually making a pertinent choice that eventually turned the odds against Xavius. Blizzard makes the entire area dedicated nearly in full to nelfs and their culture but yet you keep complaining.
I agree that Tyrande made a wise choise. But common, there were “100500” threads on forums especially from Horde side, where everybody were trolling and laughing about all those tears in Valsharas scenario. So many threads about “Blizzard you have ruin Tyrande, but don’t you dare to ruin Malfurion!” e.t.c.
Reason? Cause the Alliance could’t stop asking for the belf model. So Blizzard gives in. Please remember how many people were asking for Allaince belfs and how many were asking for Horde Nelfs because there’s a huge disparity between those two requests.
And nelfs were partially responsible, yes, but why is that a problem? You took issue with the highborne mages joining the Nelfs, why is it a problem now? The fact is that the belfs offered a better deal, given their experience with mana-crack addiction. Tyrande’s typical tone didn’t help either but I honestly doubt it was the main reason the NB joined the Horde.
And by the way, the wild gods are, as far as i know, not dead, just resting.
I’m not saying that I want those Suramar elves to be part of the Alliance, even knowing that Suramar Tyrandes home city. What I’m trying to point out is that again Night Elves were used as punching bags, just to put Suramar elves in to the Horde.
After that there were so many threads where people was throwing rocks in to Tyrande, blaming her for losing Suramar Elves. So much hate from others.
This is being debated to death, I’m not gonna join in beating this dead horse.
Ok, but this is addon where Night Elves got beaten up again, and used as punching bags just to show a terrors of a new War. To create a hype. To move a plod.
So what my point was, the picture that I wanted to tell, is that Night Elves were a normal race, but that race was not treated like other races. Blizzard used that race often to start wars, to add some races in to the Horde, to show human potential. Damn, even Deathwing started his Cataclysm by destroing Nelf city of Auberdine!
By doing that Blizzad have broke that race, taking away their unique look, tranforming that race in to incompetent race in the eyes of a players, because Blizzard didn’t wanted to spend effort to show how Night Elves being restored, to show them competent.
And a reason why wining became so big this time, is because fans had enough from that treatment. And that interview where Blizzard are saying that Nelfs already had their revenge, that Nelfs are fine, just pushes fans to create more whining threads.
Because fans feel that again Blizzard after using them as punching bags will not rehabilitate them back. That after showing them as incompetent they will NOT going to show them competent. That after all those humiliations and mems about Burning Teldrassil, and growing Pumpkins, Nelfs will not going to get something that they could be proud off!
That they will be just left without effort like always before!
P.S. Others, please forgive me for ignorance. But I’m not Iron, a cannot spend so many time to answer totally everyone.
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Can you please give me your source? I don’t recall having an agreement,nor does it make any sense for people like Fandral and Tyrande to allow the Horde.
The only agreement was years later between Tyrande and the Horde post MOP after they took down Garrosh, she would allow them to harvest lumber from Azshara if they retreat from Ashenvale completely and they did, the Night Elves had full claim of their territory post ‘‘Wolfheart’’, stated in ‘‘Warcrimes’’,Tyrande ensured full restoration of the lands for many years until War of Thorns.
Look man, I told you before that you should be getting a city in the near future. I’m playing a Forsaken if you didn’t notice. I want a new city as well. And for the love of God, the orcs did not become stronger after their defeat. Where the hell does it say that?!
There were no classes in Warcraft III, there were normal and hero units. There were race specific units for all factions, each class was given to some races in this game, but somehow the nelfs are insulted, yet no one else is. Not to mention the fact that almost each druid race takes lessons from Nelfs.
Somehow that’s a punch, cause while anyone else has to share what might have been an iconic class in silence, the nelfs get insulted. Come on…
First of all, there’s no good race except the Anduin Race, everyone has their own interests. I have no clue where you get these impressions that the nelfs were good. They were not. They had no problem shooting you before talking to you. You said yourself they were savage and I think you should research the meaning of that word cause it sounds like you deluded yourself into believing something that was NEVER REAL. Also consider that nelfs and belfs had history together and while the nelf sabotage attempts were stupid, it didn’t just come out of nowhere.
Again with the lost classes. Dear God, they gave the damned class to two races, a class that isn’t even about damned nature, but about demonic possession and here you are being insulted again.
Illidan’s story is a matter of opinion, isn’t it? Especially after his story was concluded. Especially since we seem to be getting a good side of the story from Maiev who was, in fact not so good herself, which isn’t something that just happened, she was a nasty little elf since Warcraft III obsessed with Illidan, who for better or worse has always seen the big picture, the problem was nobody else did and he had plenty of other negative traits to confuse people, but ultimately we know better cause his story has been concluded.
And by the way, you might also want to recall how many times we killed Kael’thas during that expansion and for what reasons.
Frostmourne was part of his transition, Arthas was arrogant and obsessive and that led him to Frostmourne, maybe you should do some research before running your mouth.
Gul’dan was also arrogant, vengeful and power hungry, that’s why the elements didn’t grant him power, but the Legion sure loved him.
And then they brought him back and turned him into the guy who leads the charge against the Legion and defeats it. It’s curious yet not surprising that you turned this into an insult against nelfs.
For eff sake, stop throwing around crap like this. They weren’t trying to genocide them, they were sabotaging them. The Nelfs didn’t go “HEY LET’S KILL ALL THE DAMNED BELFS” as far as I know.
And they weren’t arcane haters, not all, just Maiev who was kind of crazy, but they were wary of what mages could do since they had experience with that given that whole mess 10k years back IN WHICH THE BELFS WERE INVOLVED.
So bloody what? They came from trolls just as belfs came from Nelfs. What’s the problem? Blizzard wasn’t taking sides, they were telling a damned story wich does not matter that much since the Nelf culture has separated itself from troll culture to the degree where even they couldn’t believe they were once the same trolls. Only you could take this as an insult. Humans are weak vrykul, for example. How many humans are insulted by that?
What the one where belfs place troll stuff in the nelf camp? Leave aside the fact that belfs were once nelfs too, which would also make them trolls?
If nelfs were all like you, devoid of any humor and on the lookout for things to be offended about, I bet the belfs would have gotten a real laugh.
Staghelm has a compelling story about the loss of his child and his obsession to getting his child back which eventually drove him insane. You can get the details out of the Stormrage novel which gives you Broll Bearmantle with the initial loss of Staghelm. But since one of your characters who was a racial hero (I think you meant) for two years longer than Garrosh, it’s somehow another punch in your nelf face?
It seems to me like they could give you the moon and the stars and you’d still find something to be insulted about.
And by the way, Garrosh went from smart ruthless leader to full blown racist tyrant from one expansion to the next, having Horde players spend half of MoP doing his bidding and the next half fighting him, no space in between. You might want to consider that little detail.
Have you ever considered that the nelfs may not be as awesome at everything as you made them out to be in your head? That’s not an insult from Blizzard, that’s your mistake.
And you might want to remember that the nelfs were holding the entire damned Horde at bay before eventually having to fall back due to being overrun by superior numbers and monsters brought from Northrend.
And you might also want to consider the fact that Garrosh lost that battle because he also made a mistake and went to fight instead of commanding that battle like he did.
The nelfs didn’t look incompetent, that’s just you looking for more Blizzard punches.
Or maybe they showed that the Nelfs were so damned good they could hold off the entire Horde war machine severely outnumbered and outgunned until reinforcements arrived.
Tyrande from the War of the Ancients and Tyrande from Warcraft (including Warcraft III) were such different personalities they could be two different people.
Please show me where they revealed that fact. I’m really curious to see it.
I agree that Tyrande’s behavior is awful most of the time and it made no sense for a wise 10k year old leader. She still needs a lot of work, but then again so do many characters.
It might not seem that way to you since you think that unless Nelfs are awesome and don’t beat everyone everywhere, it’s a puch from Blizzard, but consider the fact that to this point the nelfs have more lore development than several other races combined and their potential is far from spent.
Maybe because the mockery that was WoD to orc lore? Where they had to bring back alter-universe HUGE lore characters only to have them become mockeries of their original selves as they stumble and bumble about until they fell into your hero sword? Do I need to remind you the cringe that everyone felt when Grom steps in and goes “DRAENOR IS FREEEEE!!!”? If that wasn’t a bad joke, you tell me what it was.
She appeared in Warlords of Draenor for the first time as far as I know so she wouldn’t be a “concrete” hero would she considering she didn’t have much of a basis in the previous lore.
And by the way, there was a belf that turned evil in Talador, should Belfs be claiming oppression now too? Especially since she wasn’t vital to the story of that expansion and the next one too.
No, she was more than an ordinary hero considering the attention and roles she had in WoD and Legion. And if all Wardens are like Maiev, molded to have those traits, I’m not surprised they are joining the undead and the Legion to be quite honest.
Actually the demon hunters didn’t kill and steal nelf souls. That was just Illidan and his other forces since he was holding the demon hunters back.
Also how exactly does she forgive them? She gives them a weapon and says “go fight the demons that overrun us” not “go be free and bask in forgiveness”. The Demon Hunters were instrumental in defeating the Legion. If Maiev does not agree she can try to lock them back up, but to be honest, if I were one of the guys who fought the Legion next to the Demon Hunters, I’d have something to say about that.
I remember people were upset cause Tyrande went something like “DIRTY HORDE HELP ME OR I KILL YOU” and the Horde character went “YES MY QUEEN”. People simply asked for another response, more appropriate option. Blizzard changed the whole dialogue.
I don’t remember anyone saying Tyrande was ruined for making a pertinent choice instead of jumping head-first into an obvious trap.
Yeah well, I wasn’t crazy about magic nelfs joining the Horde cause the Alliance really wanted belfs either. If that’s another punch to you, then thank your Alliance buddies for making it happen.
And rightly so. She didn’t act very diplomatic, did she? Which is totally in line with her character. You might want to accept that she’s not that great of a character, even if she’s a nelf.
No race is treated exactly as any other race down to every detail. Each race is created differently, has a certain presence across the world and in the lore. The nelfs have had a lot of both. Ask the orcs who have had ZERO POSITIVE DEVELOPMENT as a race since WoD. Ask the Zandalari, who not only have been losing constantly BEFORE they became a playable race but keep on losing. Ask the Dark Iron dwarves who have been villains for the better part of the game.
You might have reasons to complain, as I said, everyone has those, but certainly not more than those of the above mentioned races, some of which have known only loss and some have very little lore development next to nelfs.
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They also used the nelfs to add races to the Alliance, they used them to lead and win battles, to teach the younger races, to add more lore and story to the world. But somehow it’s only punches to you. Lemme tell you that we all got punched at some point, most of us. It does not make you special.
No, I think that’s just in your eyes and you have a very warped view of the nelf race. The nelfs are not broken, they are down, true, but certainly not broken, they are far from incompetent and I like to think that Blizzard will restore them cause if they don’t that means they won’t “restore” the Forsaken either.
For God’s sake the current story which involves the loss of Teldrassil isn’t even complete and you are crying that Blizz isn’t restoring you already?
No, that’s just you and other vocal few around here and I hope to God that people who are reading these threads don’t confuse the other fans with teary-eyed vocal players like you.
Holy crap, what the hell did you want? You single handedly put the Horde on the defensive and had Blightcaller running and one of Sylvanas’ lives removed? Like I said, odds are you’ll get another city. I REALLY HOPE WE BOTH GET CITIES.
Humiliations and memes about burning Teldrassil? Give me a break. You took god damned memes personal?
Well I’m done, I just wasted over an hour responding to you and I’m really reconsidering if that time was worth wasting. I’m done with this crap. If you want to keep complaining, go ahead that’s your right. Just don’t be surprised when people laugh at YOU (not nelfs) when memes created by nameless people on the internet offend your inner Nelf.
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“The Shattering” - the tauren and the night elf had a meeting to discuss how to open a trade between nelves and Horde, but they were all attacked by orcs that pretended to be sent by Garrosh. The one who survived told about it to Carine, who was so furious that he confronted Garrosh about it and challenged him to Makgora.
The nelf druid (I had to google her name as it was so strange : Elerethe Renferal ) that was killed that day re-appeared in first raid in Legion, she was the tormented soul that wanted to take vengeance on Tunder Bluff as she was blaming them for betrayal and her death.
So yeah, how come you didn’t know about such a BIG event? Which was the reason why Horde started assault on Ashenvale to begin with.
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So basically trolls told nelves the truth, and nelfies thrown a temper tantrum over it. Can’t handle the truth, keell em!
God it must be awkward for Cenrius as he confirmed it to Brann Bonzebeard it.
I guess he never opened his mouth about this subject, or else they would kill him too.
Also @Metaljaw, seriously hats off for you man, for writing such a lenghty reply.
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I’m surprised you still kept trying.
But i’m sure the dude will still call you a troll. shrug.
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