Let’s say it’s more nuanced than just outright labeling it a total failure. Some parts of the design have obviously been rather successful, i.e you can actually transition between PvP and PvE somewhat adequately (yes I’m aware of the million exceptions, no need to remind me!).
And in that regard, as a game vision, I think Blizzard latches onto that which worked, and iterates on that which didn’t. At least that strikes me as their usual way of doing things.
Yeah brother let me transist to heroic nyalotha with my 12 pvp rings, 1 pants and the 4 safeguard trinkets i aquired over the weeks.
This elite 475 safeguard will allow me to transist into mythic nzoth. I mean its 475 let me transist into the dmg meter dude. I transisted so hard into the boss man, im so deep inside of this … Pve content.
The other slots are empty but i gear with pvp only, let me transist man.
Arena was fun before legion, legion was ok. . Bfa was my worst pvp experience so far.
I was playing only pve even though i wanted to pvp but srsly didnt have time to do it with all the farming.
If pvp stat is what it takes to work, then yes please!
So when PvE lords had to do 10 arena games for 3 weeks in order to get their conflict essence it turned to be very big problem. But when PvP oriented people are forced to spam farm m+ everything is fine i guess 
That’s the problem with Blizz , they just keep listening to feedback from people who have no idea what’s happening in this game thus making pathetic decisions.
Remember MOP legendary cloak quest where you had to win some BGs. The tears man.
Sure.
I mean, the stark contrast here is Resilience and PvP Power, which were PvP stats that came at the expense of crit/haste/mastery/etc…
The seamless transition between PvE and PvP is way better now, by comparison. Of course more wants more and there’s plenty of room for improvement. But saying that the game vision has failed and it’s not up for debate is a bit silly. Clearly it is up for debate. You’re debating it with me and you’re debating it with Blizzard.
Well, that requires some more scrutiny. Where’s the “seamless transition” to PvE content of relevance? Sure, it’s much easier to clear the easiest PvE content with PvP gear and PvP stats. So that transition has improved.
But look at the m+ keys that actually carries meaning? The ones that are required to get the ilvl upgrades you need for PvP.
Or the raids? Where’s the ability to do mythic raids with your PvP gear and PvP stats? Your only choice is to get carried and pay for boosts in such cases.
Which is why you see PvPers here mention they’ve got so many different gear sets, and corruptions. Because they need it. That’s not really a “seamless transition”. Not in any way, shape or form can you call that seamless.
Ah right… You know what it’s seamless for? For the PvEers. Which brings me back to:
Not the other way around though, not really seamless there.
Yeah, but literally noone cared.
Look, from my personal pov i honestly don’t Care much for the gearing discrepancy between pve and PvP. I enjoy pve as much ad PvP so for me it’s w/e.
But breaking News is, the world doesn’t revolve around me and there are people who do mind having to pve. A person who only wants to PvP doesn’t care if he will be useless in pve if he only gears through PvP. He doesn’t want to pve anyways. Literally the only people who demand that are pve’ers. They say “I spend time gearing through pve so i want to be good in PvP too” while a PvP players says “I spend time gearing through PvP so i can be good in PvP”. This is literally proven by this very thread here.
And what is even more irritating is that you can be good in PvP by pve gearing only but not vice-versa. Currently if you’re unlucky you end up with bi dropps from Arena games and endless safeguard trinkets from the chest leaving you either naked or Running in pve gear that you had to farm in pve…
There was a time when we had a good gearing system. It was wod. While i didn’t like it lore wise it has the best gearing system. You had PvP gear that was ok in pve and best in PvP and you had class sets. Only nuisance were ashran trinkets. Everything else was fine. Why not have this back?
Oh Yeah, because then we will get Threads like this One here.
Oh, I do remember that one. There were enough tears to fill up the Black Sea.
These bonuses have to be completely broken to even work in the first place. Something akin to, “Gain 20% health, damage, and healing when engaged in PvP-combat.”
Otherwise they won’t be better than PvE-items.
And hopefully those are areas that will improve in Shadowlands.
But again, the point is game vision.
If you went to Nintendo and complained that Super Mario was a failure because it wasn’t a good simulation of the business of plumbing, then they’d probably say that’s true, but they wouldn’t change it, because their game vision for Super Mario is to be a colorful, fantasy game that emphasises fun, and not a realistic simulator of being an Italian plumber at work.
The same holds true at Blizzard.
You’re disagreeing on game vision (or some people are). The desire is for WoW to have PvP as a stand-alone activity with a strong focus on eSport and competitive ranked ladder play.
Blizzard disagrees. Their vision is to have a cohesive game world with a multitude of activities that players can transition seamlessly between, and which all overlap and feed into each other.
Saying that Blizzard’s vision is a failure because their design hasn’t been an outright success, is a bit like trying to make Nintendo change direction because Super Mario 2 wasn’t very good.
Disagreeing on design and vision are a bit different.
Design-wise I think feedback can influence Shadowlands PvP a lot. In terms of vision, I don’t think that will happen.
Except for all the things that doesn’t transition and have never transitioned, you mean? Well, ever since Vanilla at least.
Just because they made the transition easier for the most casual of casuals, it doesn’t mean that their intent is to do any more than that. Or else it would’ve been fairly simple to match the speed step-by-step by mirroring both reward systems in both quantity and quality.
They’re clearly intentionally making PvE more rewarding gear-wise (and external power systems-wise sigh), and have been for a while now. That’s not incompetence. It’s nefarious.
I think its pretty easy to pigeon hole people into certain groups:
Hardcore Mythic raiders
Arena PvPers:
Then you have:
Mythic+Arena players:
Anyone else just has some kind of RPG/RP/opinion that generally doesn’t actually affect them.
Blizzard basically caters as much to the raiders as possible, whilst trying to make sure that pvp affects them as little as possible.
If it truly was “very strongest characters should be the ones who participate and excel in a wide range of activities,” then you should see top raiders and top m+ players all above 2.4k pvp rating and having a good mix of raid, m+ and pvp gear. Instead you don’t, you see everyone at the top in pvp, in almost full mythic raid + m+ gear and no one except say mages and a few classes with one azerite piece (which is 1800 not 2.4k) .
We have 90% raid/m+ gear to do pvp, they have like 95% raid/m+ gear to raid/m+. Clearly Blizzard are talking crap or are just biased.
I’ll take what they say and do at face value. I mean, Ion wrote a post outlining their thoughts. So I’ll use that as a point of reference rather than speculation. If I thought Blizzard were downright deceiving, I wouldn’t play their games. Simple.
So… Instead of taking an analytical approach to their actions, you base your entire stance on what a US corporate group claims via one of their mouth pieces? Yep, that seems smart. I mean, it’s not like he’s obligated to claim whatever the corporation decides he should claim. … Right?
It’s like you’re saying you believe commercials to be true. Because that’s essentially what a lot of their official interviews, Q&A’s and such, are like. It’s not like they can lie or embellish the truth, right?
My analytical approach is to conclude that the design structure is a copy/paste of MoP. Both the Vendor and the Upgrade NPC.
That seems fine.
Upon Beta testing the PvP gearing process has been found to be inadequate. Blizzard would like to improve it, but for stated reasons they’re adverse to a PvP stat. So they’re thinking about it, and pitched the options of PvP gear bonuses or increasing the selection of items.
That all seems fine to me. I’ll add that the amount of currency you earn needs tweaking as well, but otherwise it seems like Blizzard knows what needs attention, and the community have clearly given valuable feedback.
But you can’t; the whole issue with making PvP and PvE share stats is that one WILL become mandatory for gearing. Mythic raiders would rage hardcore because they’d have to PvP to get gear the fastest, or arena players would rage hardcore because they’d have to PvE to get gear the fastest, in a content that constantly outscales you.
Right… Yeah… Except… This:
3 expansions is a very long time to still be suffering from the same essential problems, without intentionally prolonging those same problems.
Well I’m not going to defend Battle for Azeroth in its entirety. And it’s over, so it’s a bit of a pointless exercise.
What matters is Shadowlands and what the design is going to be there. And as I said, I think the PvP design structure is fine. There are some issues on the Beta right now, but Blizzard seems aware of them.
And then there’s a point of disagreement in regards to the PvP stat between Blizzard and some parts of the community, which is ultimately a disagreement on game vision.
But I think there are ways to have a decent gearing system for PvP that doesn’t necessarily include a PvP stat. And I’ll give Blizzard the time of Beta to at least try to explore that, along with the community.
Do you mean to include the “live beta” after the actual beta in that “wait” of yours? Because these are the same essential problems for a 3rd expansion in a row. That’s not fine. There should be no need to wait any longer.
They just don’t want to solve those problems, because it goes against what their actions scream is what they’re aiming for.
These effects have been increasing, not decreasing. It’ll increase in Shadowlands too, with even more external power systems which you’re locked to playing for most of your game time, because they’re putting in those time locks to what you can be using and punishments for swapping… whatever the hell it was called. Which you’ll need to keep adjusted to PvE to get the gear needed to PvP later on.
as an avid fan of WoW having supported and played the game relentlessly through patches/years upon years. Unless PVP Gear costs a small sum of gold and is just a templated set of gear which is only used in instanced PVP combat with the stats of our choice, I personally can’t find the will to care anymore to actively grind for 2 sets of gear on every character that I so intend to pvp and do dungeons etc on.
since its either going to be a case of it being something you must have or the polar opposite where the only thing I’ll benefit from getting is the on-use versa trinket for raiding scenarios
Sure once upon a time it made sense but even then people still were actively using PvE gear even then in PVP in ye olden eras, so arguably nothing has changed in that regard.
But if PVP is to award PVP gear, please don’t make it to a point where you can just outright die to a raw stat obtained from explicitly pvp gear, but don’t make it anymore of a tread mill that it has to be to be awarded heroic gear at like 1800 or smth and then mythic at duelist and glad can give the 485 ilvl nonsense blizzard are obsessed with putting at the end of each raid tier these days