No Random dungeon Finder?

[Zalanji-mirage-raceway]

@Superbrutal-dreadnaught

I dont know if you have missed out but after wotlk they might expand to cata if people want that but without the unwanted features

Unwanted by whom? People who actually want to play Cata for what it was, or people who actually like other versions of WoW more than Cata and want to turn Cata more into those other versions of WoW?

@Superbrutal-dreadnaught

So thats why i like this change because now we have the opportunity to build a new foundation of the older expansion the way classic players want. Do you understand? Build back better.

Better according to whom? Certainly not WotLK fans. Vanilla fans? Why do they need to have a say in this? If you like Vanilla more, go play Vanilla.

@Superbrutal-dreadnaught

" If you dont like LFD you could play TBC or classic era". Well then you can go and play retail because they have it there.

Retail isn’t “exactly like WotLK but with LFD added in”. Retail also has a lot other things I don’t want, such as changed classes, itemization, etc. Can you understand?

@Superbrutal-dreadnaught

We can add the LFD feature but like in classic wotlk at the end of the expansion and without cross realm, would you agree with that propose?

Who are you to propose a compromise, exactly?

[Superbrutal-dreadnaught]

This post has turned into Classic No changes vs Changes. We tried no changes to classic in the past, look how that turned out.

" Unwanted by whom" I dont know it was Ion who said that and im not the the one who decides which part of the audience gets what. Im only taking my stand point on why i dont want the LFD feature added to the game.

Im here to discuss and i want to know what standpoint you have. And after talking to you it seems like i said in the beginning you are the No changes crowd. But would you be willing to accept the no changes in wotlk by adding LFD to the later stages as it was in original wotlk?

[Zalanji-mirage-raceway]

@Superbrutal-dreadnaught

This post has turned into Classic No changes vs Changes. We tried no changes to classic in the past, look how that turned out.

I’m not against changes, per se. I’m against the logic behind the changes that are being brought to WotLK Classic. For example, when they allowed Alliance and Horde TBC Paladins to have access to each other’s exclusive seal, the change wasn’t done on the grounds of “the spirit of Classic” or anything like that. It simply had the goal of not making people feel compelled to roll a certain faction in order to be competitive when playing a certain class spec. That’s a pragmatic change I’m sure most people can get behind (and in fact most did). Similarly, any change intended to remedy exploits that existed in the old game are okay and welcome in my opinion.

The problem is that, with WotLK Classic, we started seeing a significant shift in perspective. Whereas, in TBC, the goal was simply to remedy some of the expansion’s “distortions”, that made people feel forced to roll a certain faction or profession, suddenly in WotLK the devs decided that the game, as it was, did not meet the criteria for being a “Classic game” and had to be changed according to the “Spirit of Classic”. Now, you can argue that LFD only existed at the tail end of WotLK, but look at Dual Spec. Look at the auto-disenchant feature. Why are we changing those? They have existed for the large majority of WotLK, they are a fundamental part of WotLK. Who is to decide that they’re not in the spirit of “Classic”? Maybe devs should be more open to consider that there’s a “Spirit of Vanilla Classic” and a “Spirit of WotLK Classic” and the two aren’t the same exact thing.

@Superbrutal-dreadnaught

Im here to discuss and i want to know what standpoint you have. And after talking to you it seems like i said in the beginning you are the No changes crowd. But would you be willing to accept the no changes in wotlk by adding LFD to the later stages as it was in original wotlk?

As I argued above, no, I’m not against changes per se, as long as they’re simply meant to “smooth” some of the gameplay derailments of an expansion in a very minimalistic fashion that doesn’t alter the game in a drastic way (for example I wouldn’t be in favor of class rebalancing at all, even if some classes are obviously better than others in the various versions of Classic).

As for LFD, I’m open to agreeing that certain features of it are less necessary than others and could perhaps be improved to avoid some shortcomings. The teleport-inside, for example, could be replaced by a “teleport-to-summoning-stone” so that even ppl who never saw the dungeon before know where it is and, if they die inside, they know where the dungeon entrance is.

But it does piss me off when these changes are being done by devs that (1) hardly remember how the game was (Brian B. for example didn’t even remember how WotLK dual spec worked, as shown by his tweets), and (2) actually prefer other versions of WoW than WotLK and are trying to apply their biases to it (BB should rly just stick to SoM and let an actual WotLK fan take care of WotLK Classic).

[Superbrutal-dreadnaught]

So it seems like you want some changes and so do I. Are you saying that without automated dungeon finder it is too hard to find a group? How did they do it back in the days? Mabye people just need to be a little less anti social and get out there and actually try forming a group, i promise it works. Now it might be harder to do if your server is dead but there is other solutions to that without cross realm LFD like merging servers.

The LFD isnt just a little small feature to smoothen out the gameplay and can be compared with small faction or class balances. Its a core element that changed the fundamental philosophy of the game that was suppose to be an MMORPG. With LFD you can stand in ogrimmar and grind 70-80 with people you’ll never see agian. Thats a drastic change from a gameplay perspective and doesnt belong in an MMO.

I would be fine with teleporting to the meeting stone atleast as you suggested. its mainly the teleportation and cross realming i didnt like about it.

[Zalanji-mirage-raceway]

@Superbrutal-dreadnaught

So it seems like you want some changes and so do I. Are you saying that without automated dungeon finder it is too hard to find a group? How did they do it back in the days? Mabye people just need to be a little less anti social and get out there and actually try forming a group, i promise it works. Now it might be harder to do if your server is dead but there is other solutions to that without cross realm LFD like merging servers.

You don’t need to promise me a damn thing, I can see by myself how it works right now. It can basically be labeled as “fastest whisper wins”. There’s nothing “social” about it, it’s just about asking for an inv sooner than others do, and hope the group leader doesn’t decide they don’t want your class/spec, or that they understand the meaning of the word “alt” and don’t just gloss over your “need mage?” or “need ele shaman?” just because you sent your whisper from a druid char.

The fact about auto-queue is that, like in BG, it takes a lot of pressure off being faster than other players. When I queue for a BG, I don’t need to ask a BG leader one millisecond before other players do in order to hope to get in. I know that, within an uncertain but finite amount of time, I will find a group. I don’t need to worry about “I only have 1h left before I gotta log off, will it be enough to form a group?”. I can just try the queue and see what the avg time in queue is. A lot of times I’ve found myself not even trying to find a group simply because I might have had the time but didn’t want to risk it and leave other party members in the dust after having almost formed the entire group.

@Superbrutal-dreadnaught

The LFD isnt just a little small feature to smoothen out the gameplay and can be compared with small faction or class balances. Its a core element that changed the fundamental philosophy of the game that was suppose to be an MMORPG. With LFD you can stand in ogrimmar and grind 70-80 with people you’ll never see agian. Thats a drastic change from a gameplay perspective and doesnt belong in an MMO.

Don’t get me wrong, I fully agree that LFD should not be part of the leveling experience - at least in the beginning. I personally wouldn’t mind it as far as I’m concerned, because I’ve leveled dozens of chars in WotLK in my life, but I can see the damage it could do to the experience of newer players. However, post phase 1, I believe the benefit of including it (allowing more players to gear up their mains and alts in dungeons so that there’s more ppl available for raiding, allowing low level “late” players to still experience dungeons while leveling if they want) outweighs the cons.

@Superbrutal-dreadnaught

I would be fine with teleporting to the meeting stone atleast as you suggested. its mainly the teleportation and cross realming i didnt like about it.

I didn’t mention cross-realm because it could be somewhat hypocritical of me as I do not play on a dead realm, but I’d be okay without it personally. It’s really the auto-queue feature that needs to be there. Without that, it’d be the same exact experience as we have now (and, as you might have surmised, not one I am especially a fan of), no matter how embellished the Retail LFG tool for mythic dungeons is.

[Coranya-pyrewood-village]

@Superbrutal-dreadnaught

You shouldnt be able to afk in ogrimmar from 70-80 spamming dungeons

and yet a very large majority of players stand in major cities looking for their next dungeon (and have done since the original vanilla). The only thing we are missing is the convenience of LFD / RDF finding a group for us instead of competing in the chat channels with spam.

[Zalanji-mirage-raceway]

@Coranya-pyrewood-village

and yet a very large majority of players stand in major cities looking for their next dungeon (and have done since the original vanilla). The only thing we are missing is the convenience of LFD / RDF finding a group for us instead of competing in the chat channels with spam.

I think he’s referring to the leveling process, not what happens at max level.

During the leveling process, if LFD were a thing, you could just stand in a main city and spam your way to 80 through dungeons. Instead, without LFD, you have at least to move from one region to the next while leveling up, even if just to do the “next dungeon”.

However, I’d certainly argue that, at max level, the situation is reversed - not having LFD actually encourage people to spend more time holed in Dalaran while spamming LFG chat, whereas if teleporting was a thing, people would be more inclined to just queue while doing other business since, once LFD pops, they can just be teleported there, do their stuff, and then leave and immediately go back to whatever they were doing before.

I can’t speak for everyone, but there have been plenty of times where my main reason for not going into a dungeon was that I was, I dunno, farming somewhere in the world and didn’t want to relog/move back into Shatt or somewhere else to form a group.

[Vanillataur-nethergarde-keep]

@Superbrutal-dreadnaught

We tried no changes to classic

No, we never had a #NoChanges Classic. We had #SomeChanges.

And as Blizz ruins what they change, the only way to a playable WoW Classic (Vanilla - BCC and Wrath Classic) is #NoChanges.

[Coranya-pyrewood-village]

@Zalanji-mirage-raceway

During the leveling process, if LFD were a thing, you could just stand in a main city and spam your way to 80 through dungeons. Instead, without LFD, you have at least to move from one region to the next while leveling up, even if just to do the “next dungeon”.

I understand what you’re saying, the issue is that if people really want to dungeon spam to max level they will do it regardless of if there is a RDF / LFD. They will just be spamming the same over and over in a group, we saw it at the launch of both Classic and TBCC where groups would just run the most xp efficient dungeons over and over.

I enjoy for the most part, most Northrend levelling zones the first one or two times but I really like breaking it up with dungeons and especially with alts, breaking up questing by joining a RDF queue, doing your quest then dungeon pops, do that, then right back to where you were. It was great!

Removing RDF / LFD completely, will hurt everyone, even if not at the beginning but at some point.

[Zalanji-mirage-raceway]

@Coranya-pyrewood-village

I understand what you’re saying, the issue is that if people really want to dungeon spam to max level they will do it regardless of if there is a RDF / LFD. They will just be spamming the same over and over in a group, we saw it at the launch of both Classic and TBCC where groups would just run the most xp efficient dungeons over and over.

True, but with LFD they wouldn’t even need to be in Northrend, which can be quite alienating or damaging to the newer player experience.

@Coranya-pyrewood-village

I enjoy for the most part, most Northrend levelling zones the first one or two times but I really like breaking it up with dungeons and especially with alts, breaking up questing by joining a RDF queue, doing your quest then dungeon pops, do that, then right back to where you were. It was great!

Yes and that’s why, I guess, it would need to at least be removed from phase 1 - to preserve that first one or two times not for me or you but for other people who still haven’t enjoyed their first one or two times leveling through Northrend. Plus, I’d guess there would be plenty of groups popping up at least during the first leveling phase.

@Coranya-pyrewood-village

Removing RDF / LFD completely, will hurt everyone, even if not at the beginning but at some point.

This much I agree with, obviously. While there can be a merit in excluding it from the initial leveling phase, there’s no sensible argument for not adding it from phase 2 onwards other than the baseless romantic babble about “social interaction” from people who either aren’t used to using their hands to actually play the game or who mistake posting a macro-style “CC moon” line as “social interaction”.

Hopefully Blizzard Classic team will eventually realize the mistake in their views, but my trust of them has all but evaporated at this point. While they declare themselves to be open to feedback, they also sound firmly entrenched in their misguided “Classic” fantasy, perhaps for lack of actual playing experience.

[Coranya-pyrewood-village]

@Zalanji-mirage-raceway

True, but with LFD they wouldn’t even need to be in Northrend, which can be quite alienating or damaging to the newer player experience.

I mean, the only time they would be in the open world will be moving to the next dungeon spam and then at max level. But these players are neither here nor there anyway.

@Zalanji-mirage-raceway

Yes and that’s why, I guess, it would need to at least be removed from phase 1 - to preserve that first one or two times not for me or you but for other people who still haven’t enjoyed their first one or two times leveling through Northrend. Plus, I’d guess there would be plenty of groups popping up at least during the first leveling phase.

I agree with you, there will be loads of people questing and running dungeons, unless it is a very low populated server, which is a completely separate issue. But as someone who has played a lot of vanilla, tbc and wrath over many years, I would be happy for them to add it in with Phase 2.

@Zalanji-mirage-raceway

This much I agree with, obviously. While there can be a merit in excluding it from the initial leveling phase, there’s no sensible argument for not adding it from phase 2 onwards other than the baseless romantic babble about “social interaction” from people who either aren’t used to using their hands to actually play the game or who mistake posting a macro-style “CC moon” line as “social interaction”.

There are many ways they could make changes to RDF / LFD.
Adding it in phase 2 can be one of them.
Limiting it to your server only (which hurts low pop servers but still keeps this server identity and community that people keep telling me about).
Remove the teleport or you have to visit the dungeon first / click the meeting stone to activate teleport for that dungeon for future visits.
Only allow groups of 2 or 3 to queue (this hurts solo players though).
Only allow you to queue for dungeons in Northrend that you have already completed at least once.

To completely say that their not doing it is very rash and foolish on B’s part tbh.

[Illonín-firemaw]

what is the reason, because of that we get no dungeon finder?

[Shaerala-mirage-raceway]

Taken from an interview WoWhead just posted:

Removing Dungeon Finder in Wrath of the Lich King Classic

One of the hot buttons issues amongst the community is the removal of dungeon finder. One of the central pieces of the conversation is what happens to Emblems if Dungeon Finder is removed, what type of system is the team considering to help with LFG Chat, and lastly would Dungeon Finder be okay if it wasn’t cross realm? Can you share any information on the topic?

Brian Birmingham: First, I want to emphasize that our goal is to provide a tool that makes it easy to find groups, without sacrificing human-to-human interaction. World of Warcraft has had numerous versions of group finding tools over the years, and there are lessons we can learn from all of them, including Random Dungeon Finder. We’re looking at modern World of Warcraft’s Premade Group Finder and Burning Crusade Classic’s Looking For Group tool for inspiration and ideas.

Looking first at the modern tools, we like the inviting and streamlined UI flow that helps you find the activity you’re looking for. We also think it makes sense to declare your role in the group, so it’s clear which roles you already have and what you’re still looking for—we’ll probably borrow those ideas. But as you alluded to, cross realm grouping is one of our concerns with the modern tools. When you’re unlikely to see your groupmates again, it can make your interaction feel more transactional, which can inadvertently encourage other negative social behaviors.

With the Burning Crusade Classic tool, one thing we like is that you can advertise your availability without signing up to organize the group. It’s nice to have a way of saying, “I’m available, but I don’t want to lead”. We’ve heard from some players that they really like engaging with the grouping tool that way, so we want to support that behavior as well. The biggest problem with Burning Crusade’s tool is just that it’s not widely used, so we’d like to make it more enticing by streamlining its interface or adding an incentive to try it.

You also asked about Emblems. It’s important to remember that Emblems dropped from bosses in both dungeons and raids throughout Wrath of the Lich King. Prior to the introduction of Dungeon Finder in patch 3.3, there was also a daily quest targeting a specific dungeon that awarded bonus emblems, which is what the Random Dungeon Finder bonus replaced. We’re currently planning to restore that daily quest bonus.

As for the LFG channel, we know some of the larger realms see a lot of spam in that chat, and we have some ideas for how to clean it up. We’re considering bringing over some of the changes in Season of Mastery that reduced boosting spam there and should have more to share on that topic soon. It’s worth noting that the policy against advertising boosts in the Looking for Group channel applies to Classic as well as to modern WoW.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, there will be a way to get the Perky Pug. We know you didn’t forget that little guy, and we didn’t either. He’ll be available through an in-game activity, likely related to grouping up as he was originally. We’re still talking about the specifics, and we’re interested to hear ideas from the community around that as well.

[Triva-theradras]

What can I say, they dont intend to fix any of the problems the RDF was introduced for. They dont even get why the RDF was introduced in the first place. Its perplexing to see how clueless the Blizzard team is.

[Aelfwynn-ravenholdt]

Only boosters and whales like this change… join any tbc server now and read the lfg chat. 90% of messages are wts/wtb boost… social my a s s…