No Warcraft without Christianity

Warcraft should honestly just stick to what it was good at being, just a fun little romp loosely based on other fantasy properties written by a dude not all that different from us. The setting didn’t need to be complex or filled with twists and turns, because it was built to be easy to drop into as a fresh player and be able to understand the basic elements if you had any experience with fantasy at all.

Metzen made some missteps as time went on, more than likely because he just got carried away, but the foundation he laid was good and fun. Where it probably started to fall apart was, as someone else pointed out, it started to become too focused around the characters and less about the world itself. Cataclysm was the main offender when it became the Thrall story for a while there.

Literally no one is looking to World of Warcraft for story innovation and twists and turns, we’re all here because we enjoy the world and the interaction between the different races. Can’t think of anyone who wanted to know what was going on in the afterlife or meeting the titans.

I’m not going to touch on the Christianity elements that were brought up, I’m a bit too close to it and don’t think I’d be able to make an unbiased comment but it was an interesting read.

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Nah cata’s was pretty rubbish, like it was playing with some cool ideas but it didn’t really do anything with them. Legion’s was pretty decent in a very dumb way. Pandaria’s was pretty good but is somewhat soured by its WoD epilogue.

I meant the ending and only the ending.

I’d almost forgotten about the Maw.

One could accept the idea of eternal torment for the truly, truly horrible — after all, the short stories released to mark the Cataclysm had assigned this fate to Sylvanas.

But the innocent victims of the Fourth War are now consigned to the Maw, twisted into sick parodies of themselves forever. As C S Lewis said of saints and the damned: “the dullest most uninteresting person you can talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare.” And the latter, in the Warcraft universe, is the eternal fate of tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of innocents!

It’s difficult to imagine a fate any kinder than oblivion for them. In past installments, perhaps the Light could have claimed these souls and taken them to a paradise beyond imagining. But now the Light is no longer an ultimate force of good — why should it get ‘first dibs’ on them over the other cosmic powers when, after all, these souls are native to the plane of Death?

It’s awful. Only someone with either a sadistic streak, or a lack of moral imagination, could write this.

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Right, so, I took the time to read the first post, but, I cannot say that I share the viewpoint that the game is in decline because it has departed from Christian roots ( I only played Warcraft 2, where you heard Latin if you clicked on the church).

I personally think that the game is in decline due to mediocre storytelling that, even if we had stuck with an early version of the Holy Light that was very heavily-inspired by Christianity, and the classic version of good vs evil, would have still remained mediocre.
Why that is so? Well, for starters because the original dudes who were really passionate about their work, have left. Now we got guys who will happily retcon everything into oblivion if it fits their “rule of cool”. God forbid that dude who said “Continuity exists to enhance a story, not tie the hands of it’s creators.” They say they care about the lore, but if they did, they’d make more of an effort to make everything tie together instead of chagning things on a whim.

We also cannot forget that it is simply times changing. Back during my early forays into fantasy through Lord of the Rings, there were indeed clear-cut themes of good vs evil, and you could usually figure out quickly which characters were good, and which weren’t. Now in modern times there is a different trend going on. Novels like Game of Thrones entered the market where everyone is more morally ambiguous than they were in Lord of the Rings. GoT tells a story that basically says “Everyone is a douchebag”. And you see that in more media these days, even outside of fantasy. It’s just different times.

Another reason why I think the game is less-played is due to Activision-Blizzard’s less than stellar practices that have been gaining more spotlight. Whether that is their business-practices of laying off people while the CEO gets himself another fat bonus, or how they managed to muck up a remaster of a beloved-classic game, or how they try to squeeze more money out of their public by changing the payment options. And people have been getting fed up with them as a result.

And last but not least… age. Both of the game and of the playerbase. WoW saw the light in 2004, so it is a 17-year old game. The playerbase changes as some of us move on, and new players begin to play it, who want different things than the original players. And WoW changes with it to better suit to their needs, or so Acti-Blizz feels.

So, tl;dr I think there are more/different reasons than just a departure from Christian roots that cause this game to be in decline.

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Pardon me as I misread!

Thanks for your reply eitherway and thanks for explaining. I mostly agree with your stand point in that regard. I do personally believe that Warcraft’s current storyline however has become more dynamic with the introduction of the various of the cosmic forces. In which everyone in essence, believes ‘‘They are doing good’’ in their own way. Perhaps it could have been told better for certain, but it remains an interesting dynamic for me in that sense.

The theme of good vs evil predates Christianity by a lot. Furthermore, the theme of good vs evil in Warcraft is extremely different. It’s never been in World of Warcraft. Not ever. Look at the classic races, and their diverse religions, lifestyles, cultures, etc. Look at how the Light isn’t a god, and even as early as BC (where the Naaru are introduced), e.g M’uru. It has always had this theme of “morally grey,” which has itself become a caricature over such a long span of time.

But let’s return to Queteron’s original post. It offers no substance, whatsoever. It makes claims without backing them up. Then again, I suppose that is how scripture works. No evidence means it should just be thrown aside. It is a fantasy to believe that Warcraft lore has a “Christian foundation.” There is a reason we don’t see stonings in Stormwind, or carpenters nailed to sticks, or such. It is a romanticisation of fantasy religion, far more akin to D&D than anything else. He also seems to claim the West is based on Christianity, which is demonstrably untrue. It was the rejection of this through the French Revolution that has set up Western culture. Furthermore, he just seems to claim buzzwords as being only applicable to one religion. Similarly, claims that topics of “literature, religion and humanism are gone,” is also just incorrect. The only thing that really deserves pointing out is, " Back then the story was centred on the great struggle between life and death, light and darkness, hope and despair, with knights, crusaders and priests fighting under the banner of the good and true against the forces of evil. That was Warcraft at its peak!"

And that simplification doesn’t even cover the vast array of nuances, but it is the closest thing to truth offered in the post. Not to mention it involves ignoring the vast majority of the expansion to accept that worldview. I find it difficult to accept that people can merely voice support for something without basis, without evidence.

But back to your post, now the OP is out of the way, I want to address some of your narrative points.

In the same expansion they were introduced, we knew they could turn evil by ‘dying.’ And on the same topic of the Light, we know that can be harnessed by anyone for power. The Light is no god, nor are the Naaru. They are simply beings of it, and have always just been doing their own things in-game.

I’d suggest that this has always been the case. There’s a reason why classes can use shadow, undead, and fel abilities. It’s never been a case of black/white morality here.

In Shadowlands, I’m pretty sure we still see reference to people dying, and just staying dead. No loitering in the Shadowlands. On the contrary, I find things far more nuanced for when we’re out of the Shadowlands. When somebody dies, they don’t just simply go to an afterlife - they just all go to suffer in the Maw. As far as interesting moral dynamics go, we’ve not had better since Elisande in Legion.

I think describing the Warcraft cosmos as “cold and nihilistic” to really be just an expression of its afterlife not being one you believe in. Probably because there are multiple, and same with gods. Would you consider Elune, the Loa, the Earthmother, the druid demigods, etc. to offer this same notion of being cold and nihilistic? No, it offers the contrary. There are a vast array of characters in the lore, and they all enjoy their own afterlives catered to their religious groups. It’s precisely the opposite as cold and nihilistic.

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Ahem!

Turko-Finnish-Mongolic lifestyles. Don’t forget us!

Carry on.

Also @Queteron based thread and pased posts.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/637696578592702485/829356586279239711/mememors.png?width=572&height=631

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Muscular post…

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Did this really post really need to be cancelled? Like. I’m not sure if I particularly agree with it but I don’t really see how it’s offensive or the like.

I suppose it doesn’t really belong on RP realm forums I guess but eh. Was a somewhat bemusing read.

Single minded dogmatic beliefs are bad, unless it’s the single minded dogmatic belief that single minded dogmatic beliefs are bad.

Edit: On the subject, who plays through Scarlet Monastery without thinking of insane christian crusaders?

I do not think that we should enter in the loophole of where and when someone considers when and where Western culture was established because for many countries and for many cultures of those countries that view can be percieved in very different manners and time periods.

I think the way that he portrayed cold and nihilistic is obviuslly based on his point of view which I do not mind but there is also the portray of good and evil being an universal truth mentioned on his previous post which I do think that is also far from being true since each race/entity of the cosmos will have a different code of morals.

Regardless I agree with everything that you have stated.

my favourite part of the Bible was the bit where Moses took up the Helm of Domination and became the Lich Rabbi, but also

It’s very interesting to read. I don’t think WoW necessarily needs to return to its alleged Christian roots or whatever, but obviously the pervasive and nigh all-encompassing influence Christianity has had on the Western world has also had an influence on WoW at a rather low, almost subconscious level. But I think breaking away from the usual mould of GOOD = OBVIOUS, BAD = OBVIOUS could potentially make for some entertaining storytelling. We’ve seen the righteous turn evil before in Warcraft with the zealotry of the Scarlet Crusade, and likewise elements of Forsaken and Blood Elf society turn entirely malicious and evil for good reasons.

all i’m saying is pls can we have more evil naaru & lightforged draenei, thank you.

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The Average Duality Fan vs the Average Christianity Enjoyer

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I for one as a priest of Cthulhu am quite happy about the representation of my religion in Warcraft. We even got the supposed “good” branch in Legion of void users. :slight_smile: :squid:

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Deus Lumen Vult for the Emperor Light HERESY DETECTED
begins to sing Sabaton The Last Stand rly loud

hate when that happens…

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It’s important to note that the Lord of the Rings was explicitly written with a Christian foundation. The Ainulindalë, the shaping of the cosmos in the Silmarillion, features God singing a good universe into being which is then polluted by the action of his rebel angels. This universe will be realised as the ultimately good ‘Arda Unmarred’, when the immortal souls of elves and men take their proper place in the world as God meant it.

Tolkien was a devout Catholic, and while the Lord of the Rings wasn’t written as an explicitly religious work, it was written as Tolkien’s ‘perfect myth’ comprising many of his beliefs as a Christian.

No-one would doubt that, but two facts remain: the Western notions of good and evil have been mediated through Christianity; and Christianity claims previous teachers of morality as anticipations of itself.

Goodness can exist in diversity — indeed, it is better that goodness exists in diversity, to manifest all its facets in the world. Christians view the goodness in different cultures as seeds of the divine Word as well as worthy vessels for the Gospel.

This is pop history. The French Revolution did not entail a wholesale rejection of Christianity, nor did it (considered only in its anti-clerical aspects or otherwise) have sufficient reach and lasting impact to ‘set up Western culture’ — Thermidor, Napoleon, the Coalition powers and the Congress of Vienna saw to that. You do not live in a world founded on the back of the Revolution of 1789.

I addressed this in my original post.

This used to be my assumption, and I didn’t view it as “cold and nihilistic”; in my mind, and the minds of many roleplayers, the dead would be funnelled off to their respective afterlives under the care and protection of the deities they worshipped in life. These were places of eternal rest, under the aegis of goodness, into which no evil could enter.

This has been overturned by Shadowlands: souls are now lumped into a machine of, in many cases, torture and exploitation where the Light has no sway, and their eternal existence can be ended by the blow of a sword.

That’s cold and nihilistic.

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How do I get it?

Every soul in the universe getting processed through a giant space station in the shape of a hoover, their existence boiled down to powering the welfare of alien races sounds like the premise of a B-flick Sci Fi movie, but here we are.

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The crowd is literally cheeringbut this time it’s the night elves.

I have paid my toll. It’s their turn now.

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