I don’t agree that Warcraft was build upon a heavy Christian foundation so much as it was built upon a heavy American/Western fantasy foundation, much of which inherently carries themes that are either directly (The Chronicles of Narnia) or indirectly (The Lord of The Rings) Christian. If interpreting it that way has been a help to you in enjoying the setting, then I don’t fault you for it - and the one thing we can agree on is that the latest Warcraft cosmology is depressing, bleak, and wholly nihilistic in execution.
We ought to encourage people to take more analytical views of the Warcraft universe rather than shutting down the discussion; just as I often argue about the setting from a PoC or LGBTQ lens, it ought to be equally valid to discuss it from a theistic philosophical view. It’s still literature, after all, even if it’s in a skewed form.
Decent read, disagree with a lot, but I like reading discussions.
Don’t really agree. Warcraft has never had an obvious christian theme, to me. However I do agree that christianity is being erased in western countries out of fear of upsetting non-christian immigrants, but that discussion is not suitable for a Warcraft forum.
I have not really considered this before in relation to real-life religions, so I can’t really speak of that specifically, but I absolutely agree that the lore developments you describe are bad.
I certainly think there’s a quality to stories of conflicts where neither side is easily judged as right or wrong, but I never felt the need to make the story of light and shadow into one. One was benevolent and one was corruptive, and that was fine.
And your last point in particular strikes home on a very emotional level to me - I think the Shadowlands expansion is really depressing. Its themes and depictions seem vastly exaggerated to try and catch the fleeting attention of players whose interest in the setting itself is shallow, but the outcome for those of us more keenly aware of the lore (as roleplayers typically are) it becomes far too much, far too extreme - the far-reaching and permanent consequences of the new lore introduced much more visible to us.
It wouldn’t be real christianity if it wouldn’t try to reclaim someone’s temple (or ideas) as their own.
I’m not sure I follow. You’re telling me that there isn’t a good vs evil conflict because there isn’t an omnipotent God? …that’s not an argument. Good and Evil as concepts don’t have to depend on the existence of a God.
The idea of a good vs evil dichotomy doesn’t deny that there can be nuance. M’uru and the blood elves’ arc was a story about forgiveness, sin and redemption, all elements that are indeed very christian.
“It makes claims without backing them up” = just as you’ve done until about now. It is because both of your arguments are obstensive - you have to see the truth behind them based on your previous knowledge. It has always been a valid form of argumentation. Not sure why you detract validity from your own way of arguing - it is the same of the OP, perhaps you’re just not aware of it.
Hardly. While we can argue if Warcraft ‘respected’ christianity, rather than subvert some of its values, it is true that it borrowed a lot of values from christian culture.
Arguably untrue. By the point of the french revolution, most ideals are already established, which is why the enlightenment can take place. Christianity solidified and unified europe and its people at an ideological and spiritual level much more than you’re giving it credit for.
You’re lucky that people are more sympathetic than you have been to the OP, especially considering the many mistakes within your post.
I do have to disagree on this single point, but not the thesis OP presented. I’d contend it was BfA that was the start of the downfall of writing in the Warcraft universe, rather than Legion.
I’d contend that Illidan’s killing of X’era, and his subsequent choice to be the Jailer to Sargaras, are both good. The latter, because he is keeping a great evil contained. The former, because X’era herself fell. One of the core principles of the good/evil dichotomy inherited from the Christian influence, is choice. Through action or inaction, a character can choose to do good or evil, or allow good or evil to happen. By removing Illidan’s choice, by forcing him to be “redeemed”, X’era fails because redemption can only begin with repentance, and repentance is a choice. Note that the other Naaru we have seen do not hold to the same views as X’era, and through the depiction of Turalyon’s eyes going from gold to brown, we understand that X’era didn’t so much offer faith, as force it. Which of course, defeats the point of faith.
While llidan is the winged, cloven hooved demonic figure, it’s X’era who actually fits the Satanic archetype more, as one seeking to control and master others, and having turned from the Light, which since the very beginning of Warcraft has been presented as a Good force (remember the debates about Elune being a Light Lord… good times). However, this understanding gets completely broken by the time of Shadowlands.
The first-equal mark of this change from a good/evil dichotomy, was Teldrassil. Prior to BfA, similar actions had been depicted as universally monstrous. The Path of Glory, for example. The other first-equal mark, is Sylvanas’ complete butchering as a character. Prior to BfA, Sylvanas had been depicted as a driven, end justifies the means character, who after Wrath, was dedicated to keeping her people safe, no longer just arrows in her quiver. In BfA, she apparently decides that doing an Arthas is a good idea.
We ended up learning, two years -after- BfA lauched, that Sylvanas is doing all this to break the cycle, because she understands that the afterlife is utterly awful. As Wrall has pointed out, the Shadowlands are terrible. There’s been much discussion on why each realm of the Shadowlands is awful, so I won’t go into that in detail, but summaries is simply: it’s just a machine for anima.
So, from the end of Legion, to the start of Slands, we’ve gone from a simple good/evil core to the setting, to a setting that’s completely morally null. The Light is just looking for power, same as the Void, everything that decades of writing has set up and established is wrong, you’re just a battery for the afterlife, or a catspaw for a cosmic force. When one looks at the afterlife now, and the six cosmological powers, one can’t help but think Sylvanas might have a point that the -entire- thing is a nightmare and should be remade. Interestingly, her villain-batting in BfA makes sense now. Just not in the way Blizzard wanted, I suspect. Now, she’s arguably the only ‘good’ in the setting, as she wants to end the madness, however I doubt very much that they’ll end Slands with Sylvanas literally rewriting parts of creation.
But, back to the general point of this ramble, the entire re-write of a foundational part of the setting results in us having to re-examine everything that’s come before: Illidan and X’era? No longer a conflict between a fallen Naaru and the redemption of the Betrayer, nope, now it’s just two people having a minor fight. Velen and Turalyon reflecting on this, on choice, on faith? Pretty meaningless, Light doesn’t care, just obey scrub. The further back we go, the more of a joke it becomes. All the choices, those decisions to do good or ill, they didn’t matter. The entire narrative of Warcraft is undermined by this change, and to make the change, they’ve had to butcher characters and the setting. As a result, the story has just collapsed.
This was an -excellent- post, and though I had never been able to formulate my thoughts why narratively Legion was such a destructive expansion (as it was gameplay wise for the future of the game), you managed to sum it up perfectly. Even in WoD Fel and Void were clearly evil, bad entities and energies and there was clear cut good and evil in the game… But, as you point out, Legion changes this dynamic.
Thank you. I can now finally claim that Legion was the antichrist expansion of WoW. A wound from which it will never heal, until it is cast aside and abandoned.
Those were simpler times, Matowa. When I could hate orks and enjoy a good story. Before Danuser. Before Legion.
I still remember around the time of MoP/WoD people were really aggravated about how the Light and its followers are all a bunch of goody two shoes good guys and it’s so boring, wish there was more morality involved between the black and whit dichotomy presented prior.
We get just that, and now the complaint is that it ruined the setting
Sorry in advance if I come across as particularly obtuse, but I’d like Queteron to elaborate on a few points of his that I didn’t fully understand and that didn’t seem fully explored.
In what way is the “expurgation of Christianity” from “our Western culture” “more or less complete?”
In what ways does our culture “depend on Christianity,” and how is this “seen in its very conscious attempts to liberate itself from its influences?”
What direction has “the entire Western civilization” been heading for a while?
Out of curiosity, why?
Finally, how are all of the above statements tied to the topic of Christianity in the Warcraft franchise?
