Not true. I want to do m+ or arenas. But because bis trinkets come from raid I need to do raid to obtain that gear. You see? If I want bis I need to do content I don’t like. Do I complain? No.
Even if I like EP it becomes boring once you farm it 10 times. Is it fun with alts? No, its still the same content I’ve done 10 times.
If you look in that thread, you’ll see I reply to your post after that point, but hey, you want specific rebuttals, let’s go!
All I see here is Ion saying he’s “not happy” with the system, and it being mentioned in vague terms that players “don’t like grinding on alts”. There’s mention of a difference between grinding the heart and grinding gear, but that difference isn’t described or elaborated on. So basically, nothing in this section highlights any particular reason why they are different, it just makes vague allusions that they are.
Stacking is nothing. So what? I have to get both boots and bracers, they stack. having to get essences and other gear slots is the same principle, unless you can actually demonstrate why I should think of it differently?
You’re making an implicit assumption that best gear coming from content that has to be cleared is essential to it’s definition of being gear. That’s a bizarre assumption to make. Benthic gear was bis for a good while(and still is), according to your definition, this can’t be right. So something is wrong here.
Where gear comes from has (in my opinion) nothing to do with it’s status as gear. It is gear for reasons other than it’s source. You arguing it’s source is key to it’s status as gear is akin to suggesting we define whether something is a car on the basis of whether it was made in a car factory rather than it having four wheels, being able drive, mechanical properties etc. Nonsense logic. The two are unrelated in this instance, so I;m not happy to accept this point as being “evidence” of them being distinct types of item.
Again, you’re not actually drawing up any distinctions with reasoning. You just keep repeating “they’re bad” and that “they’re not the same as gear” but you’re not drawing up any actual points. People not liking them is not evidence they’re not gear. The players don’t get to define what is and isn’t gear. Their interpretation of it is irrelevant. We’re not talking about some sociological concept like “society” here where perception is important, we’re talking about objects in a physical game where they can be categorised under purposes they serve, and you’re claiming that despite sharing similarities with all other objects in this camp, essences do not belong there because “players don’t think they belong there”, that is not an argument, that is a statement. Why should I take player perception as weight in this case? Make your argument.
Again, you’re talking about what people “feel” and “think” and vaguely making references but you’re not actually drawing up anything concrete. So what if players “think” that r3 is needed for +10? That doesn’t have anything to do with whether it’s defined as gear or not.
Right, I’ve addressed your points, now i’m going to ask the same of you, in order to actually get something concrete going on:
I said here that this was not a difference, but something Worth discussing, anyway, if you think that the way gear stacks on top of essences is the same as a piece of gear stack on another you are disingenuous. Even if you consider them as gear, it is a bad system because it adds some new requirements to be up to date that previously were not there and that require you to go out of your way to obtain them. gear or not this point was about how this stacking of systems is not good for the game and that even the developers aknowledge it.
Using something badly made and that was a result of blizzard overlooking the fact that benthic could roll with a socket is not a good counter argument, also technically you can still get better gear with titanforging and sockets from the raid.
This might be true in the real world, but not in world of warcraft, while where it comes from obviously is not the pillar of the definition of gear, it is a part of it. At least it is a part on why people don’t have a problem with gear usually but have one with essences (this is the important part of this discussion).
Admit it or not gear is not so black and white that you can make a one fit all definition. What is the difference between an ability with no major interaction in a kit of someone and a trinket? both need to be grinded via rep or quests and both are add to the power of your character, so you also have to take into account things like the general perception, the amount of work put behind animations and things like this.
what the best thing we could define gear as was: gear is something that goes in one of the 14 slots our character has and is constantly replaced. what’s the problem here, blizzard decided that this was no longer the case, they made artifact abilities and infringed on the previous concept of gear. Now all we can do is go by other standards, the previous ones don’t satisfy moder world of warcraft. Unless you want to defend that artifact abilities were just gear.
Let’s be clear here, they are treating essences like gear, somewhat, this is the error that should be fixed. essences right now if you want to give a satisfying definition are not gear, nor are they abilities, they are essences.
If we return to what this discussion is about we talk why people don’t like the current essence system and want a change, the counter argument most say is that essences are gear, this is false as it is saying that they are abilities.
What are you left with at this point though?
If blizzard had stayed true to what originally gear and abilities were and didn’t create this weird in between’s we could have clear cut definitions about this things, but now we can’t anymore. What we can conclude is that essences are not gear nor are they abilities, which is completely fine by me, i wrote the things above only because people are against account wide essencesand compare them to gear not because i care about their definition.
For me sounds like another grind crap who no one wants, like azerite neck.
I read how to get essences for my class and all guides say that I need do pvp, but I have 2% win ratio on arenas. So tell me how I can get essences if I don’t do mythic +15(because I don’t have essence), and I suck in pvp. I check other essences and they are from random drop from emisary or what?
I play because I have no other option. I’m addicted, I have no family, friends or any one who will spend time with me. So I’m playing and msot of time I’m doing old content solo because no one wants play with me.
Btw. You can buy all champions in lol… Do you want suggest blizzard to sell gear and character progress for rl cash?
You’re avoiding my points. I understand why, because you’ll see that if you try to define gear, you can’t do so in a way that either a) excludes stuff which people obviously interpret as gear or b) acknowledge essences fit closer to this definition than anything else. Which means the point i’m trying to make sticks.
You’re also focusing too much on the ability itself and not the thing which grants it. You talk of artefact abilities. The fact remains you cannot access said abilities WITHOUT THE GEAR EQUIPPED. It is nonsense to talk of “Wake of Ashes” from Legion without talking of the fact you MUST have Ashbringer equipped. Same follows for essences, as the abilities they grant are granted in use by an item (gear)- you’re seeing abilities and gear and mutually exclusive, and they’re not. Gear can grant abilities, they are not competing categories. It is entirely possible for gear, to mainly manifest through granting an ability (like Essences) but this doesn’t change that the essence itself is an item of gear because you MUST equip it to be able to use the ability.
I’ll offer a definition of how i’d define the issue at the end of the post. But I think seeing abilities and gear as “rivals” is wrong.
You can say the discussion “isn’t about that”, i’m saying it is. Because my original point was players don’t expect gear to be bind on account if said gear boosts you to a level beyond entry level to a patch, therefore why expect the same of essences (given as far as I am concerned, they are gear). Sure, you can handwave my point away because “you don’t think it’s relevant”, but my point is it’s hypocritical to say azerite gear shouldn’t be boa if you are arguing essences should be. You can’t dismiss the point i’m trying to make without engaging with my points- and defining what is gear is crucial to that.
I will repeat; it doesn’t matter whether players feel like they’re gear, they satisfy the criteria for most definitions of gear you could imagine. Therefore they’re not skippable because a main has achieved them for the same reason azerite gear isn’t because you have a main who purchased a specific 450 piece - because the premise of skipping power grinds to develop a character is contrary to what the purpose of investing time in a character is (which is a cornerstone of most RPGs).
Also i’d ask how you know that most players interpret them as abilities. You’ve mentioned it more than once- how do you know this? what’s your source?
My own definition of the issue, as promised:
For me, the true distinction of categories is not between gear and abilities, it is between internal and external sources of power.
Internal sources of power come from the character, so by simply playing the character, you earn these powers. They provide the “template” for the character and the basic shape of progression, but they do not determine the intensity of that progression.
The conditions for achieving these has nothing to do with attainment other than experience (levelling up) or being a certain race.
External sources of power is things that affect your character play similar to above, but comes from sources outside of that character (you must activate/find them in game) and do not come to you naturally as a result of levelling up, rather they are tied to specific actions like questing, reputation, dungeons, crafting etc. It is through these the bulk of character progression happens and these determine the intensity of progression I spoke of above. Like Internal sources of power they may grant:
I’d divide them into two camps, the first being stuff that is located “on” your character, as in follows you around and does not disappear, and is equipped. It is a permanent part of your character progression decision making. I call this camp GEAR, things that satisfy this definition are:
The second camp is about external sources of power that are not-permanent, not equipped and do not have a “place” on your character item screen. I call these sources BUFFS. Just like the above they can grant you
And upon drawing this distinction that is why i’d say that essences are definitely gear. They’re just gear that grants abilities rather than stats.
Ppl need to stop saying you don’t need this or that essence, you will be fine with this easier to get one, and u also dont need rank 3, you’re not doing the hardest content so u dont need the best ones, that’s so stupid, ofc you want the best for ur character, can you do it without the best ones? sure, but why? in my opinion, ppl that cant do the harder content can even use the more powerful essences more.
Thats not the point tho, the point is, new/returning players and alts, lets just say for argument sake they do want to do the hardest content, theyre forced to do old content for weeks to months to get their old essences before they feel competitve, that’s the problem right there, most ppl that realise what they have to go through before theyre there, wont bother, thus we lose playerbase, and trust me, if this essence stuff wasnt such a clusterfk, we WILL get a lot of returning players, and thats good for all of us.
And if ur butthurt that you had to grind essences and in the next patch these ppl dont have to, I dunno what to tell you, grow up, its old content. we will all have to grind again for the new essences.
SImply this post.
In 8.3 you cannot enter new raid until you get all essences on level 3. Who will enter new raid then? Mothod, mabe other top guild, and what about hc guilds or casuals? Essence will be new “curve”.
Wait what? 
One of my points is that these should be in the internal sources of power if we want to use your definitions. I agree that they are currently treating them as gear, and that’s why you see this posts coming up one after the other. I have said a lot of times that i want account wide essences and such, but the ideal solution would just be to let people unlock this as they level through bfa.
It’s fine if you want to see them as gear, go crazy, but all you are doing is defending a terrible system, strapped on in the middle of the expansion that no one asked for and prevents a lot of people of enjoying their class.
You must equip the neck to be able to use the essences, but the essences per se are what grant you the ability, not the neck, because you can have the neck equipped without having the ability. i don’t think they are mutually exclusive i think they are both, which was kind of my point in the last post. If we want we can even say that the neck gives you the ability to socket an item in your neck and this item gives you the ability, not the neck.
Still don’t see why it should be more in favour to gear than to essences because if the gear didn’t grant you the ability it would just be gear, if the ability was just in your spellbook it would just be an ability, you put them toghether and you have essences, not gear, not abilities.
You akncoweldged that these things are also an ability, it doesn’t seem crazy to me to say that they should just give you the ability and not be treated like gear (this is really what a lot of people want) as they are now. Because yes right now they work like gear, they are also abilities tho and are required as content in the game is balanced around having these with you.
Here you also acknowledge that people don’t see this as gear, despite the fact that the game treats them as such.
I mean we can also talk about how horrible of a system azerite gear is, the fact that a lot of must have passives are locked behind random armor instead of just being in the class, it’s not a good system either, people put up with it because you can get azerite fairly fast, even the good one and you can get it from the content you like.
So they are gear, but different to gear right? can’t we treat this differently then seeing as it’s not the same thing? people just want the things that you consider external to become internal (if we want to use this definition).
I’m usually an advocate of “getting” why essences aren’t boa (even if I don’t think the system is the best, which I think a lot of people misunderstand) but I will say your point about returning players in 8.3 is a good one. There will be catchups for alts in terms of gear (415), but is the reduced reputation costs of essences comparable? I don’t really think so. So this is a good point.
I think it seems like an issue because we now tend to have “catchup” gear. If we didn’t have catchup gear, it wouldn’t seem odd (because even returning players would have to do old content for the typical armour gear alongside old essences grinds).
It seems like an issue because blizzard release catchup gear so anyone can jump into new content right away and begin gearing to bis from the catchup baseline. I mean we’ll have 3 new essences, but unless they’re bis, that doesn’t replicate.
One of those 3 minimum is mandatory basically because it will give you corruption resistance.
But the game gives catch up gear since forever, i’d say that essences are the odd one out and should be put in line with the rest of the game. or, you know, treat them as abilities and just let us unlock them while we level.
how many currencies do you grind to reach one area of content though. Perhaps you just need to be a bit wiser to make a better comparison.
Well, I thought my post made clear that I don’t see them as different. They’re the same, because they both fit my definition of gear precisely (for me). The fact that one (Azerite helm) grants stats and the other grants active ability (essence) is irrelevant to me because I define gear as something you can equip/attach to yourself which does one or more of the following a) boosts stats b) grants active abilities c) grants a miscellaneous passive effect. Both satisfy that definition, so they’re not “the same but different”, they’re just two forms of gear, much the same way despite a trinket being somewhat diverse from a two handed axe, we consider both to be gear because of their purpose.
regarding hoping the external becomes internal; I can see that is what people are asking for. I go back to my definitions to make it clear why I think this shouldn’t happen (i’m happier with essences being more accessible but they still need a grind imo)
Internal powers form the blueprint of your char (they determine potential, but they do not determine how well you fill that potential, how intense your char is)
External powers boost your intensity/performance and determine how much of your potential you reach.
As essences pretty much boost intensity and do not alter the shape of an individual’s potential (they do not allow you to change what role you can play, or reshape your playstyle fundamentally in the same way acquiring your class skills over time does) then I do not see them as appropriate to become internal. Talents are the only internal source of power that dramatically alters our power level and even then it’s more about “how you do it” than just “raw power boosts”, so unless people are suggesting essences become talents, I don’t see an argument here.
A middle ground could have been introducing new talent rows in BFA that spans levels 110-120 and are unlocked upon reaching a certain level AND AP threshold and at each level you can pick an essence, gaining the major essence power at 120. Something like:
Level 111: Passive row 1
114: passive row 2
117: passive row 3
120: row 4, passive plus active.
And more “prestigious” essence ranks are unlocked at HOA levels like:
HOA Baseline: rank 1
HOA 55: rank 2
HOA 65: rank 3
Rank for tied to achis
So when you hit the HOA level your “essence talents” all automatically “rank up”.
Regarding specific essences, something like
Baseline (all chars have them)
Flame
Lucid Dreams
Lifeblood Shards
Vision
Earned: You purchase these essences from a vendor in the HOA area, in exchange for 1 token (you can buy any essence with a token)
CandS
BoTE
Naz Ess
Mecha Ess
Raid Ess
Pvp Naz Ess
You earn tokens by: dinging 120 gives you 1 as a reward after a small questline.
After that, you pick up a repeatable quest which refreshes each time you complete it “do heroic activities”, it’s your standard % bar thing.
This bar fills by:
etc.
Obviously not equal, raid bosses for example would give more % than doing a daily quest!
This system i’d be happy with. You still have to earn essences, but how we do it is up to us, so even alts can work on it simply by gearing up!
This works for normal gear, this is not normal gear, this are special abilities created to add to your class strengths and weaknesses. You can’t compare a trinket active ability to an essence, they are not on the same scale.
the grind would be levelling as it should Always be for abilities.
i’m arguing that essences should be a part of this, they shouldn’t be power progression more then talents are.
and this is what gear Always did and no one had a problem about. they decided to mix the two last expansion and people are not happy about it, only because you are fixated on the fact that they strapped them on the neck instead of an in game tab of some sorts doesn’t mean it was a good decision, nor that it should not be changed.
they already are a pseudo talent system, open your hearth and tell me they are not similar.
to talk a bit more about this i’d say there a lot of essences that enhance and change some part of the playstyle, obviously it won’t go upside down, but it doesn’t go upside down even when you level and unlock a new ability most of the time. Every class that had bad aoe now is at least decent in burst situations instead of being useless in every, class with bad single target have more single target burst, classes that had resource problems have way less now, classes with bad defensives can have an instant heal etcc etcc
I don’t know what you mean by changing role, no ability does this alone, you change spec and role with it.
My ‘main’, lets call her like that has exalted with gnomes. Her essence from there is R1 because she does not have resources to buy R2 or 3. She did buy R3 dynamo though because that’s OP as heck for tank DPS.
… she is a frost dk that doesn’t tank, and I have no idea what exactly was I thinking front of vendor.
You see forum trust levels are a good thing. I considered if I type down my true opinion or keep posting .gifs. I like GIFs more.
Down the line, catch up gear is a good system for all of us.
And returning / new players will require essences. So adding them to the catch up system will maje sense.
And you can safely bet that people who play multiple characters are also making use of the same system.
Down the line it is better for the health of the game and the future of the game.
So i dont get why people are so against any changes. And are you bothered by the fact long time players use the same system as the returning or new players? (Catch up gear or not?)
Alts and playing multiple characters means a fresh start for long time players because they want to experience either of the following:
It would be really great if people would respect every players choice in how they play the game.
If that means 42 120s (like posted earlier) or 5 characters with 3k rio from M+ or anything else… (even if that means to hop in and out of the game between patches for whatever reason)
The only thing that matters is that you and everyone else enjoys the game.
I have bad news for you. MMORPG games are all about doing repettetive content over and over. If you donr like this kind of gameplay than you just play wrong game.