Opinion on removing combat related API-s from the game and killing combat addons

[Finike-silvermoon]

I guess all we can do is expect the worst…
That way, if they fail, it won’t be disappointing, because that’s exactly what we expected from them.
And if they don’t fail, then everyone wins.

But yeah, like you said, that’s a pretty risky mindset.

And at least we’ll be able to proudly pat ourselves on the back and say “Told you so!”
(And if it turns out the other way, well… I’ll just look like an idiot )

Also, I don’t really get why this change is supposed to be worth it.
A lot of people feels that addons are “killing the game,” but they’re still here, they subscribe, buy the game, and play it.

Now, if we flip that and remove combat addons, that’s a really risky business move, because the opposing camp might just leave despite everything else.

Maybe they’re doing it for new players?
Hoping it will attract more people to the game because sales and subscriptions have dropped?
I don’t think addons are the reason for that, but who knows, I guess we’ll find out eventually.

[Tah-earthen-ring]

@Finike-silvermoon

If you need something like this, it means the design is wrong. Combat addons highlight important mechanics, and I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Most of the time, encounters are overwhelming… It’s really hard to focus on movement, min-maxing DPS, avoiding mechanics, interrupts, etc.
If you think about it, it’s not the addons’ fault, it’s Blizzard’s fault. They designed these encounters.

No, it’s cause and effect.

Encounter 1 > Addon to make ‘mechanic A’ easier.
Blizz then has to make Encounter 2 have ‘mechanic B’, because otherwise it’s just too easy.
Encounter 2 > Addon to make ‘mechanic B’ easier.

Etc etc. This has been going on for years.

We’ve been getting more elaborate encounters with crazy mechanics because it has turned into an arms race.

And now Blizzard is stopping that arms race.

@Finike-silvermoon

As of now, I don’t know any addon that’s capable of playing the game for you.

There’s a bunch of addons that basically tell you what to do.
That is essentially the addon playing the game for you. You just need to follow instructions. That’s no longer playing the game; that’s just following instructions.

That’s a black and white view, I know; there’s more gray area there. But that’s basically what’s been happening.

@Finike-silvermoon

It’s more of a social pressure thing.

And that’s not okay.
Sorry if you think it is, we’ll have to agree to disagree then.

@Finike-silvermoon

But what if they designed PvP in a way where addons don’t give you an advantage?

That’s exactly what they’re doing.
They’re giving everyone an equal playing field.

But since addons aren’t just an issue in PvP, they’re tackling addons as the basis of the solution.

@Finike-silvermoon

They’ve lost the players’ trust (and honestly, I think for good reason), and most people feel like they already know how this is going to end, because they’ve seen it happen before.

I think that’s an unfair way of looking at it.
Because that’s ignoring all of the things they have done RIGHT.

If all they did was mess up, do you seriously think there would be anyone left playing this game?

[Finike-silvermoon]

"No, it’s cause and effect.

Encounter 1 > Addon to make ‘mechanic A’ easier.
Blizz then has to make Encounter 2 have ‘mechanic B’, because otherwise it’s just too easy.
Encounter 2 > Addon to make ‘mechanic B’ easier.

Etc etc. This has been going on for years.

We’ve been getting more elaborate encounters with crazy mechanics because it has turned into an arms race.

And now Blizzard is stopping that arms race."

Ok, this is kind of a “chicken or the egg” question, I think you could have a meaningful debate about it, but we’ll probably never know.

"There’s a bunch of addons that basically tell you what to do.
That is essentially the addon playing the game for you. You just need to follow instructions. That’s no longer playing the game; that’s just following instructions."

Which addon are you talking about that basically tells you what to do? Like Hekili?
Blizzard actually added something similar, but the rotation it shows is just a really low-quality clone. (Plus, Blizzard themselves even added a one-button rotational spell… not Hekili)

And that’s not okay.
Sorry if you think it is, we’ll have to agree to disagree then.

Unfortunately you can’t controll this, as you can’t in real life. (Or Blizzard can act like a dictator, but then I say, thanks but no :D)

That’s exactly what they’re doing.
They’re giving everyone an equal playing field.

They are giving equal playing field, by nerfing the better ones. It’s like take away rich people money and give it to everyone else… What would motivate rich people to earn money after that?

I think that’s an unfair way of looking at it.
Because that’s ignoring all of the things they have done RIGHT.

If all they did was mess up, do you seriously think there would be anyone left playing this game?

Yeah, it’s like saying the mustached old German guy boosted his country’s economy and it would be unfair to ignore the positive things he did for his country just because of what he did afterwards. I know, yeah, it’s a bit of a strong comparison, please understand me correctly.

[Tah-earthen-ring]

@Finike-silvermoon

Also, I don’t really get why this change is supposed to be worth it.
A lot of people feels that addons are “killing the game,” but they’re still here, they subscribe, buy the game, and play it.

Now, if we flip that and remove combat addons, that’s a really risky business move, because the opposing camp might just leave despite everything else.

Or… They’ll still be here, they subscribe, buy the game, and play it.

Yes, there’s risk involved, but I do think its worth it.
Because if we end up with a game where players no longer ‘have to have’ certain third party tools, that makes for a better experience.
If we end up with a game where you can do an encounter, because the game is made in such a way that it provides exactly the challenge that that encounter is meant to provide, then that makes for a better experience.

And I know it’s two sides of a coin… You can fear the worst. Or you can hope for the best.

Ultimately I think the truth will lie somewhere in the middle.
Some features will probably be nice; and iterated on.
Some features will be missing and added later (or not; if the devs simply disagree that players don’t need it).
Some features might be bad. And they’ll get feedback and hopefully fix it asap.

Because for all their faults; the devs nowadays DO seem to at least listen to the players’ feedback more. So there’s at least that.

[Finike-silvermoon]

I mean, I hope you are right mate

I am going to sleep now, it was nice to debate and exchanging opinions

[Tah-earthen-ring]

Have a good night. I’m off to bed as well. Cheers!

Just one more reaction to your last reply:

@Finike-silvermoon

They are giving equal playing field, by nerfing the better ones.

This is where we disagree.
They’re not better. In fact… In my opinion they are worse.
Because they’re using crutches. They’re essentially ‘cheating’ (don’t get hung up on the word though - I know it’s not ‘officially’ cheating; but it’s essentially cheating).
And they’ve been doing it for so long that they maybe can’t even cope with mechanics anymore without it. So from my viewpoint they are worse players overal.

[Beki-argent-dawn]

Banning only combat addons is not enough. All addons should be banned in the future.

[Finike-silvermoon]

Yeah, maybe you are right and we will see!
At least I will wait feedbacks, before buying the game, and there is no reason from my side to cry more.

Future is not written yet

Good night

[Filotan-thunderstrike]

@Finike-silvermoon

Ok, this is kind of a “chicken or the egg” question, I think you could have a meaningful debate about it, but we’ll probably never know.

Try Mythic Archimonde beam mechanic without Weakaura and tell me how it goes. There are several bosses that are near impossible or have extremely tight reaction windows that if you miss a beat you’re wiping over and over again.

Blizzard designs fights like these because they expect the playerbase to create addons and Weakauras to solve mechanics for them, by blocking access to information the mechanics can be a lot simpler.

Have you done the new dungeon Echo-Dome? Tell me how many hard mechanics there are in that dungeon? I can tell you, there are none, it’s all easy to understand and requires no addons or Weakauras to finish at all.

You should ask yourself: Why do I need these addons? Your answer will likely be: “Because otherwise I can’t do this dungeon or raid!”… THAT is the problem, you NEED it, you don’t WANT to need it but without it you can’t play properly.

[Cyamites-kazzak]

They are giving you a bicycle and expect you to still enjoy racing

[Korikasai-mirage-raceway]

@Finike-silvermoon

The removal of combat addons is basically like this:

It’s dumb and makes the game worse.

But the people saying ”Git gud scrub” need their ego boost & Gate keeping so they just want people who need audio Cue for if they step into bad stuff gone from raiding.

[Sylvare-argent-dawn (Sylvare)]

@Finike-silvermoon

I’m a developer too, and believe me, I can confidently say that a passion project like WA — which has been developed by countless people for over 10 years — is impossible to rewrite with the same level of quality within 2–3 years using a team of just 10–30 people.

I’ll be honest, weakauras as impressive as that tool was, has dictated how people play the game in my personal opinion for the worst.

I’m sorry for their work going belly up, to them I would say many people enjoyed your creation when it was still around, take pride in that, but I’m glad for the game that its gone.

@Finike-silvermoon

Then why ban them? I mean if you don’t need, why would you ban them?

Game difficulty is balanced around you having those addons.
I don’t want to have to need tools to play a game.
I want to play a game, not set up and process a datasheet.
So the why here (probably) is: to get people like me involved into content again, probably, those who refuse to use tools because it makes the game stop feeling like a game, no matter how much QOL they add to the system that requires these tools.
I promise you I’m not the only one.

I do absolutely expect a mess tho and blizzard creating in house tools to make up for the removal of addons I also don’t have a lot of faith in, but its a start I personally am happy to see blizzard take.

[Cyamites-kazzak]

The problem with this is that they will have to dumb down classes to not really have any modifiers or short term buffs. It will make classes feel bland. Go try classic and see how much you enjoy pressing 3 buttons.

It might get some people to play more, but it will also make people who enjoy endgame quit.

[Sylvare-argent-dawn (Sylvare)]

I feel like there is plenty of space to land between the two extremes of a game being developed around you processing data at a rate that would make a market analyst blush and the simplicity of vanilla.

A lot of the simplicity of vanilla was also due to technical shortcomings, people having bad connections etc etc, classic being simple was simply because people demanded no changes.

Did they need to make it so that green fire goes off on a green ground (the only way you’d notice is if you’d have an addon shouting at you that you’re standing in fire)?

I’m against the game becoming smoothbrain, but again, I feel like there is planty of landing area between smoothbrain and what we have now. A way to challange your skill expression without you having to rely on tools.

[Orison-stormscale]

@Tah-earthen-ring

They essentially wreck the experience that the devs have build. And they became so intrusive that the devs even had to forbid certain functionality at a point: The addons were almost starting to play the game for the players.

If you stop exaggerating do you still have a point? No.

Addons do not play the game for you. They can not. Period.
They only provide a different type of signal than the game does. So, instead of a boss yelling, “Burn in fire”, you hear a horn.

Oh NO!! So much experience is RUINED!!! Why you play horn instead of listening to boss!!!

[Cyamites-kazzak]

Im sure there is a middle ground, but removing 10 spells/talents per class is not that middle ground.

I also struggle to see how they will have time to add enough accessibility and addon replacements in a timespan of 6 months for midnight not to be DoA.

[Orison-stormscale]

@Sylvare-argent-dawn

Game difficulty is balanced around you having those addons.

The addons don’t actually make the game easier, so no, the game is not balanced around addons.

Think about this. What is the difference between these two:

1. I saw a Youtube video that says, do not stand in fire when boss casts it.
2. The addon told me to not stand in fire when boss cast it.

I know exactly what you are thinking. We should take down all Youtube walkthroughs.

[Sylvare-argent-dawn (Sylvare)]

@Orison-stormscale

Think about this. What is the difference between these two:

1. I saw a Youtube video that says, do not stand in fire when boss casts it.
2. The addon told me to not stand in fire when boss cast it.

The difference is youtube would be a tool to help you prepare for the bossfight, whereas the addon completely eliminates this need for preparation because it will just tell you when it happens.

Its like asking whats the difference between studying for an exam and bringing a cheat sheat.

And no, I do not consider addons using cheating, before you start guessing what I’m thinking again, not as long as blizzard designs the difficulty with the knowledge and expectation of people running these addons, something they themselves have admitted to do in interviews.

[Sylvare-argent-dawn (Sylvare)]

@Cyamites-kazzak

Im sure there is a middle ground, but removing 10 spells/talents per class is not that middle ground.

I fully agree, in other threads I have also spoken out my desire to not have the game go smoothbrain, unfortionately blizzard tends to use a butchers knife where a surgeons scalpel is needed.

It is a start I am glad to see blizzard take nontheless tho, I don’t expect it to not be a mess, but the way the game is now its more likely chasing people off then attracting new people, I want this game to be around for a while still, I’m having a lot of fun rping in it.

[Orison-stormscale]

@Sylvare-argent-dawn

Its like asking whats the difference between studying for an exam and bringing a cheat sheat.

Except this is not an exam, and nobody really cares how you knew that you should not stand in the fire.

What are you even crying about? i still don’t get it. Is it that addons are required? Guess what. They are not required. The only thing that is required is that you know that you should not stand in the fire. Be it that you watched a Youtube walkthrough, got an addon, or just figured it out all with your amazing IQ. It makes no difference to the guild or to the community.

I think I understand now why community is supporting this move. Here is a story about Andy:

Andy joins a guild. On Andy’s first raid run he dies because he stood in fire. So, the guild master tells him to get an addon. Andy is ashamed, but instead of accepting that he died in fire because he failed to prepare for the raid, he is angry and wants to shove it to the guild master by killing addons. “Burn in hell WoW community” - Thought Andy for himself.