You call it that and thats your view but you show no respect towards others in the way you type .If you wish to debate you need to do so in a calm manner and stop the inane attacks and name calling .
Do you honestly think your point matters more because you called people names ? do you think anyone is going to listen to you and take you serious when you rant and rave like a mad man and insult.
Nobody is going to take you or your view serious so cut it out.
I did not even started people these days take everything so easily.
To me this thread even in wrote like it is still makes 0 sense/reasoning if you paint … … it still stinks…
The way you speak to people stinks sorry to say .
Yes it does pretty sure most of these supporters want waterstrider to have waterwalking without putting item to it…
What i said is imo true but people get … when someone tells them what they say/do what they are …
just a tip . one of biggest problem that a lot of people who start to learn new language is they focus way to much on grammar .
also atacking grammar is just as low as his personal insults and proves you have no real arguemnts in discussion ![:slight_smile:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/slight_smile.png?v=6" ":slight_smile:")
Atleast i know 40man raids cant count towards quests…
When you reiterated countless times that you already have them and listed countless reasons why you think this is a bad system, but you still get attacked for wanting things “for free” on a Zandalari toon.
Cause I can’t want something to be better for others right? This mentality is killing me. The one obsessed with yourselves and your preferences are you, not me who is arguing for something that he believes would be a better system for everyone/most people. But you cannot see beyond your own mentality, your own obsessions so you can’t step down and hear these reasons, you cover your ears and chant “instant gratification” while bearing a knowing smile, how lesser fools like us just want to have everything the easy way. Have it your way then, savor your victory I can’t keep arguing with the same silly things over and over again, while you just ignore everything that doesn’t fit your narrative.
You guys are more selfish than anyone who ever made similar threads to this will ever be, and you don’t even want to see this.
Exactly thank you for this post 
Please save us from such comments; ‘‘You ignore others. You can not see beyond your mentality, you don’t want to see we want it for a better game’’ bla bla… These all are also true for you, in fact it fits to you even better.
You think giving away things, and removing all the requirements will make the game fun and less tedious. We think giving things away, not locking them behind certain requirements is what causes the boredom in the first place.
That selfishness you are talking about is nothing but a narrowminded namecalling, this is the nature of this conversation; we will be seen as opressors, you wil lbe seen as the guy who wants to make it better for everyone.
A while back one of you asked me a question I could not answer back then, and Monsterette sums it up pretty well - and perhaps because of that, I can sum it up better myself.
You ask whether the grind is fun. And while I already stated that to me it does have fun elements, even in extreme cases (old Winterspring Saber farm), it is true that most people would answer no to that question. And I can see that and accept that.
But this brings up a new question. Is World of Warcraft supposed to be fun every single minute? That has to be the goal of it?
Sure, it’s a game. But much of what brought fun to this game was never actually funny in and of itself.
Look at old-school STV world-pvp. It was a disaster. Corpses scattered everywhere, people could not really level, and back in Classic it was really hard to skip that entire place, since it covered about 20 levels worth of content (admittedly, some of that content lead you elsewhere). It was annoying, grindy, horrible, especially if you were anything else but a Rogue. And therein lied it’s greatest achievement.
You actually felt like an adventurer. The place promised riches, so all types of scoundrels and thieves were lurking there, that is, the players. Booty Bay rightfully had it’s name back then.
Everything in this game ever was a chore to achieve, until it wasn’t. And once it wasn’t, quite interestingly people slowly started complaining that the content was null and void, there was no challenge. That you had to do a certain type of content to feel you have achieved something.
You can see that kind of thread even now, here, these days, on these forums. Because everything is dumbed down, and you have to work for nothing.
So yes, grinding these new races is a chore, and I will accept that most will not find it a fun thing to do. But maybe feeling fun all the time is not really the goal here. And maybe wanting to remove all boring and repetitive content is not really a good idea in the long run.
You seemed to show promise but you are starting to attack the same straw-man as the rest here. Nobody argues for grinds being removed. Literally nobody sane thinks grinds are bad in an MMORPG. The singular issue here is that the thing behind the grind lock this time is not progressing your character, but actually you have to create a new one AFTER a very long wait. And if you wanted a specific AR character, cause that’s the one that drew you in, you had to “waste” your time on another toon you’re never gonna play.
For the last time:
Nobody thinks grinds are bad, stop arguing for grinds. We’re only arguing for races not being locked behind grinds as that cripples healthy RPG style progression. For the love of god if anybody tells me how grinds are good, me, who just sat down and ground out pandaria serpent riding in one or two sittings by farming eggs, and enjoyed it wholeheartedly, I will just bash my head against a wall. Can we stop defending something nobody is advocating the removal of?
BTW I actually miss those good old grinds you could just sit yourself down and do. BfA has none of that, it has time-gated, boring, do nothing grinds. I fished up the 500 daggermaws from the faire just yesterday to buy the skate, on a whim, you really don’t have to prove grinds to me.
I did not say you are arguing for the grind to be removed, we have talked about this on multiple occassions in this thread. We sort of agreed to disagree (although no real agreement was made, so here we go again).
I had a pretty good argument lined up but I always get lost half-way through it, generally because of my sense of nostalgia.
My point is, lots of stuff that gave people a sense of accomplishment was invalidated by other people who found that stuff boring, repetitive, annoying, offensive. Hence why I brought up STV as an example, which is not a specific grind, but a place. Thousands, if not millions of people enjoyed the free-style, chaotic, horrible world-pvp of STV and the unnecessary amount of griefing and offense that came with it. There were people who didn’t, so coming next content Blizzard made sure world-pvp was controlled and put behind objectives and there was no real place where you could go all-out like back in Classic.
There was also more and more stuff to do, Badges to grind, daily quests to do etc. Important to note, that ignoring these grinds put you at a disadvantage since Badges and reputation were needed to do certain things in the world. Griefing became a central topic and people were punished for it. With that, the old-school world-pvp died out, now completely replaced by structured and controlled battlegrounds.
Also, flying made it harder to pursue the enemy, so there is that, too. But all of these things, together, were all supported by players who wanted to get things done faster and who wanted to participate in more and more content. Which is, you will note, a fine and understandable goal! But a goal that overall killed one of the most intense PvP, a system that had no goal, no achievement, other than the fun of participation (I’m talking pre-WSG of course, but one could argue that the first few BGs didn’t really make open world PvP cease to be but rather contributed to it).
My bottom line is (and maybe I finally get to it), there were lots of bad features in this game. There were also lots of good features in this game. And sometimes a feature that was bad for one player was good for another. You and others multiple time argued that the grind for the Exalted achievements is a boring and repetitive one, and noone in their right mind can support it.
And that is exactly the point I am questioning here. Because to me, an old player, this is nothing else but the same old story again. This feature causes some people fatigue, dislike, the sort that cannot be handled normally, the sort that leaves marks on them, makes them not play, so they should remove it.
But I think (and I might be horribly wrong on this one) that more people left this game because of such feature removals than the count of people who left it because such features were adopted or not removed. Because removing such elements takes out of the game. Makes it bland. Having everything from the get-go (be that a “core feature”, as you think Allied Races are) is not why all people play games. It is also not because they want to work for everything, like in the real world, I give you that. It is somewhere inbetween.
Once again, I get your frustation. You don’t like this. Okay, Blizzard, come up with something different next time around.
But don’t make them go back on a decision they made, at least not for this content. People have been doing this with them since Classic, and that hurt the game more (in my opinion) more than bad decisions.
Let this system run it’s course, stomach it, criticize it (so if enough people support you, they never implement it again), but don’t make them remove it during the content they are the focus of. This IS a core feature of THIS content, and if you make them remove it, that invalidates every effort of the design, lacking as that may be.
I have been doing the same as you since classic and i dont think leveling a char to max ,then gaining rep to max only to level another char to max is what the game is all about .
I have earnt all 8 allied races soon as they popped i had them but can you not see it could and has hampered new and returning players choice ?
Having to go back to outdated content to grind rep .
I dont care if others get it free i really dont because iam not selfish .
Rep grinding is not proper content imho iam sorry .
If it was a questline like you do at the end of the rep grind then sure i understand that but iam sorry they set a precedence with belf/goat/panda.
Its like buying a 16 cylinder engine only to be told you can only use 8 for 100.000 miles you just wouldnt do it .
I really think that the allied race scenario it’s enough to unlock them …
So it’s fine that people need to level a max level character to do scenarios, but it’s not that they have to spend time on that max level character to grind reputation? Since your focus was this whole time on the idea that they have to level a throw-away character?
I was a returning character at the end of WoD. Admittedly, I was “raised” on Classic, so I didn’t care much about grinds. All the funny stuff that I wanted I had to get with my characters (it was a Horde character first, since I was Horde my whole life, but then switched to Alliance exactly because I wanted a taste of that side, so Ferelian became my main).
The fact that I had to unlock literally thousands of small things that other people had already, a lot of people had them, made no problem to me. The lack of choice I had when setting my eyes on a specific prize didn’t hurt my fun factor.
Certain people might have a problem with it, true. Which is why I keep saying, sure, argue for your own rights. My only real stance on the matter is to not remove content that was decided on. That was made with a specific goal in mind. Allied Races were not made with new or returning players in mind. Perhaps they should have been. But they were not, they were created to provide new races for people who have been shuffling the old races for 8 consecutive contents so far.
I wish you’d stop bringing up character progressing grinds when I said the reason I think this method is bad is because it wastes character progression. Like with all do respect you can’t just say you get what I’m saying but not address the issue at all and shrug it off, and go back to the same example, that still doesn’t work for the above reason.
No I didn’t. Don’t get me wrong it is, it’s a very lazy grind design, but the problem doesn’t lie there. If there weren’t any races locked behind them just the usual mounts and mogs nobody would think the system is bad, the fact that you worded the sentence this way still tells me that you don’t seem to get my issue.
And it’s a terrible idea that you shouldn’t change course as a developer just let “bad” designs stick around too and maybe it will turn into something great. Maybe it will, maybe people will just leave by large numbers like they did in BfA. I’m not saying that’s strictly and only because of the unlocks, there is plenty wrong with BfA the game feels very unWoW-y if you excuse this made up word. It hurts both current players (by having to wait excessive amounts for certain types of content in queues.) and ‘would be’ potential players the bad practices made leave. I’d rather they tried to fix bad features like Azerite in 8.2 instead of just saying what they originally said and tell us we gotta suck it up that’s how it’s gonna be.
You also make a great point against yourself by the way, by saying how people enjoyed PvP for the fun of it without incentives. That should show you that there doesn’t need to be a juicy AR carrot if the content to get there is actually fun. The problem with reward oriented thinking is, no matter how great a reward is gonna be if you’re stuck with a less fun experience getting there than you had before for no rewards it still is a poor experience.
I think most of our views don’t need to collide you’re just making them collide. A healthy allied race unlock(or the lack of an unlock) and a good, grindy, entertaining game design doesn’t need to be at odds with each other. The only options are not ‘grind for AR’ or ‘no grind at all’, we can put other things behind that lock, if the experience leading there is fun and meaningful.
What part of me playing classic did you not understand or that rep grinding is not proper content especially when gated.
I know a few ex classic and tbc players that are used to grinds were dismayed races were locked and timegated behind reps.
They could understand mounts/recipes/enchants head and shoulders.
But races being a huge selling point of BFA only to find a no go at start l
Put them off which in a already degradeing game isnt helpful.
If they were behind questlines and scenerios then understandable as its story and content and more fun.
Please keep sitting on your high horse and keep giving your blessings to those who are less fortune. People depend on your approval senpai.
And also keep telling other to stop acting like superior at the same time. Thx for the laughs.
The whole thread is all about removing the grind.
How so? Tons of people have their allied races unlocked and they’re playing with them right now.
Even though you think it is working, it actually isn’t. You do you anyway.
Mounts and mogs are the two features that make me plan ahead. I am not playing my Gnome Rogue because I first want my Gnome Mage to unlock the future Heritage set because I think it would look awesome for my Rogue even while leveling. I will also level a Kul Tiran Druid so that I can then wear the Heritage set on my Kul Tiran Outlaw Rogue who will wear the Captain title that I had to grind on my main first.
Multiple times in this thread people argued with races being a core feature (you among them, if I’m not mistaken; I may be). But to me the appearance of my characters is just as important, seeing how this is not a pen and paper RPG and I can’t just envision their appearance as I want.
To me, those are core features to playing my alts. Their feeling, their backstory depends on it.
I’m describing this, because you guys keep bringing up returning and new players, and how not having access to certain things will make them go away. That is possible. But it is also possible that they will see it as an incentive. You can never see what another person wants, or needs, or what their ideas will be about the game.
But I know what doesn’t work, because I have seen it not work a hundred times already. Blizzard listening to people about taking out content, or better coordinating content. That literally never worked ever. You say I’m raising a point against myself with Classic World PvP, but you fail to see that that ceased to be because some people were complaining about it. Instead we were given carrots to play nice, stick to objectives and the like.
Would this content be worse if the system was created that Allied Races were accessible straight away? Probably no. Would this content be worse if they took the requirements away now? Yes, in my opinion, big yes.
Because that would be once again the same old story. People complain, Blizzard changes it, then people find a new thing to complain about, and the cycle continues. It never ends.
To me, the main core, the absolute main core of this game never lied in the content to be tackled, but the attitude and resilience of the people tackling said content. Classic was a bug-filled farce, and we had the best of time with it.
You are correct that having classes unlocked straight away would have been more like Classic. But that once again does not touch the core of the problem. That things work, most people find a way to tackle problems and make those things work, and the people who claim they speak for the majority will always find ways to ensure Blizzard changes the working stuff just because it is not perfect.
I hate the AR system (which I why I don’t get why you brought it up) but I don’t care if they change it or not. I can make this game work with or without. I can find my own fun in it, no matter if there are parts that are hideously bad.
Not to mention that you are talking about how this could be done better, but completely forget that we are talking about a game that has successfully been going on for 14 years now. Show me another title that did just that, with constant changes being implemented, and gameplay varying all the time. After 14 years you are bound to get a few things wrong. But dislike from players doesn’t mean you should remove core features for your content because then you can remove everything, because some people will dislike everything - just everyone something else.
You claim all the time that people don’t understand you, I don’t know why you keep doing that.
Rep grinding is not proper content yet about every singular content since Classic heavily relied upon reputation, at least on your main character.
You keep claiming you talk for other people, but of course when “other other” people show up claiming they talk for themselves and disagree with you, we suddenly don’t understand anything.