Calling someone who isn’t a girl a girl is apparently peak level humor and a true display of fine crafted comedy that warrants the following:
Rather than a really terrible joke that also makes fun of several groups of people who might not appreciate it.
…Which, they admitted, was a lie. Nobody asked for the removal of these things in numbers. The dev team did.
Of course now it’s too bloody late. The genie’s out of the bottle, the cat’s out of the bag, so whether we want it or not the community will have this tug of war and you don’t need to go far, be it general forums, twitter, reddit, pick your place, even in the echo chambers that are pro-these changes there’s dissidence. But the vast majority of players did not ask, want, or support these changes.
They already lost the community perception and support. That’s all over whatever media you go to. So now, in their classic 7 year style, they just do “Ahh well, the playerbase are idiots, we know better”. That’s worked so well for them so far, hasn’t it?
In response, Blizzard has disabled comments to their posts and chosen not to engage with the community that spites them- Because if they did, they’d have to actually defend their PoV beyond “I felt uncomfortable abt it in my line of work”.
I do not personally care if some lines are removed off an orc speaking in demonic about former devs etc, I do not pay attention to them. That is not what is going to ruin my gameplay experience.
What is ruining my experience is that my game is being developed by these kind of morons and this kind of idiocy is being normalized.
Not the substance, but the implications. If they can’t even do this right, then how can you expect them to get anything else right either?
One dev said something along that line yes. It doesn’t mean they also didn’t recieve comments on it. I’ve seen several people who aren’t devs talk about things that should be removed. And support of the things that have.
Even if not, its still their game and the devs are still also people who might not appreciate a “haha girls funny” joke, if it also might have been put in there by one of the creeps.
Many of the comments prior to the closing was often just vile hate talk from the typical crowd whenever anything happens. You should be blaming those people instead for muddling any discussions.
I’m not saying you can’t criticize, but when that also becomes filled with people throwing death wishes, slurs and whatever else in with the mix, they need to turn a filter on regardless of if people also have valid criticism.
Similar to the TOL2 situation, where the game had some genuine actual problems that needed to be criticized, but so many people took to be transphobic with it that everything ended up being dismissed.
The only solution is at the moment wait and see.
I know we both agree(I think so atleast) on that the game is in a terrible state gameplay wise and lorewise.And story. And I want that to change.
But I don’t think these fixes or removal of things to make the game either have less references, or less humor at the expense of groups of people already often put down/basically just making the game more inclusive, is a problem.
Nor a display of why the game otherwise is bad.
Well-meaning people can still be terrible at making something or awful at writing. ill-meaning people can be good at it.
What is with you and Nerathion crafting strawmen? Vixi you are an intelligent person, why are you stooping to this.
Am I suddenly insulting you enough to the point where you have to mock everything I say? Because we’re disagreeing over this?
I’ve only called Nerathion a moron because his strawman about bugs as content was frankly moronic.
Yes, I do.
Because it is.
Because it’s important context. Hell, some of the /flirt and /silly being removed is only 5 years old. RIP Lightforged Draenei, too racy for 2021, but completely fine in 2016.
Yes. Because it adversely affects the enjoyment of other players who might’ve liked those things.
It doesn’t need to be “crucial” to my experience. But removing it adversely affects my experience of the game. My girlfriend and I like doing /silly and /flirt at each other in game, quite a lot, because we like the humour.
Yes I know that sounds silly and odd, but that’s what we do when we’re playing the game.
Literally impossible, as this entire thing is proving.
The game is outdated, and it didn’t matter 5 years ago. Or 10 years ago. Or 15 years ago.
But it suddenly matters now. Why? Because some developers care more about feeling comfortable working on a game, so they delete aspects of the game that… have no adverse effect on them?
It’s quite strange that if they had this massive, huge amount of support/demands for these changes, that they’d not showcase it. It would only make their argument stronger, after all.
But, for some mysterious reason, they have not. Could it be, because (as one of them blurted out), there was no substantial demand for these changes?
If they had had the spine to tell the truth for once and not go about it under lies and exaggeration, maybe I would have been more sympathetic to their PoV. But, they did not, they could not, because this is the core thing.
They do not respect their players, their time, or their wishes. If they did, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
So if they treat us with contempt, why should I treat them any different? I don’t care at all what they want or wish, I just want them to produce good content and changes.
Nah, instead you should be asking why are people reacting that way and whose fault is it that the people are so vile/angry toward Blizzard. Is it because they are Gamers (the easy choice), or could it be because the Blizzard has been villifying the said playerbase the past 7 years and ignoring almost all of their feedback, all the while patronizing and telling them that they actually know what’s best for the game (whilst getting it wrong every single time).
Sure it’s easy to just say “it’s just a bunch of angry Gamers”, because it throws all of your own fault out the window. And seeing how thin-skinned a lot of the devs are, I do not doubt that the lucrativeness of this choice is ultimately what made them make this call, not because it was true.
Is the playerbase toxic about the most asinine of changes? Absolutely. Whose fault is that? yeah, their own. They dug their own grave.
Are obviously something any sensible person would condemn.
Yeah, bolded -they-. And for some reason, they haven’t come up with a filter the last seven years. Whose fault is that?
Can’t wait for the Light to actually be fully removed from WoW with no other explanation other than it has religious connotations and this one dev in the office was forced to go to Sunday school when they were young so they’re super uncomfortable working on a game with religious connotations.
New lore change: You can only use Light if you follow the moral compass of the developer team.
I have absolutely no idea whats going on anymore?
Saying the word ‘greenskin’ immediately lowers your Light Score by 100 points.
Yeah and being a privileged, white human paladin male lowers it by another - 10 000, unless you make an annual (WRONG)- weekly (WRONG), ok, DAILY visit to the shrine of Radeleine Moux and apologize for your existance.
I don’t think the removed /silly and /flirt lines are so bad that they deserve dustbinning.
Vixi and Nerathion disagree with this point vehemently, and while I understand why, I disagree with their points because, quite frankly, I cannot understand how someone can be so thin skinned to have them removed.
Johnny Awesome was cringe, and I explained why the joke was the joke it was. But this apparently means I also support the joke? I never cared for it, but I can grasp why it was made and why some would think it’s funny.
It really is an endless waltz.
^ this is more of a gundam reference than anything else, Nerathion. Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz.
Pretty good, I recommend it if you like giant mechs and a literal boy band of terrorists turned freedom fighters turned violent peacniks.
It’s very confusing.
Quick hide the Val’kyr who’re big golden angels and whose existence explains the predominance of angelic symbology in the Human versions of the Light faith.
what part of it is strawman? you defend it as if it were the pinnacle of humour for some absurd reason, and you’re not elaborating further with simply incorrect lines like this
how exactly am i misrepresenting what you argue for? are you not arguing for offensive humour/references (because you enjoy / like those things, e.g.
?)
However, here’s a counterpoint: keeping them in adversely affects someone else’s experience of the game. Why should they deal with it? Maybe you should deal with it instead.
You are not more important than someone else. However, the humour is punching down on minorities and enforces some terrible stereotypes that carry over to a larger misunderstanding of gender and sexuality that really REALLY should not be present in a game meant for kids, as that can be indirectly also be really bad for their development and understanding.
And it’s absolutely 
to watch some people defend these as if it was the hill they wanted to die on because ‘waa!! waa!! i can’t yell slurs any more!! damn sjws!!!’ type of reactions are what they want to side with, if not cry similarly themselves. Especially when Boush continues to strawman the entire reason for these removals;
Could it be that you continue to misunderstand the reason for these changes and continue to have absolutely no empathy towards any worker in the Blizzard staff because idk, I guess Blizz introduced Artefact power in Legion and that was worse than some Really Bad Person in history for you and thus you feel compelled since then to be absurdly against everything they do now? Or what other reason is there for it?
Stop misrepresenting and being so hyperbolic about this that you devolve into some really questionable lines like
What is simply wrong with you?
There’s nothing to do with being thin skinned and I’m perplexed how you continue to strawman this especially when your big problem with me and Vixi was strawmanning.
When you consider that:
I’m going to go out on a limb and say: they don’t have to deal with it.
Fair point, you’re right. Apologies for going that direction. You’re being nice to me so I’ll stop doing that.
Again, you think it is. Things like this is subjective, and ultimately as far I believe(I’ll only go based on my opinion), it is up to the individuals of the group the joke hits to decide individually if they think it is or not. For example, a crass joke about women. Might seem harmless to someone. I or other women might not find it harmless, but rather the opposite.
I’d say that it is very much then those people that should be listened to.
True, but I’m sure they can find other things to enjoy. If not, then I’m going to be blunt, I think its not a big loss.
Doesn’t sound that silly to me, but rather nice. I’m also not saying you can’t enjoy a joke showing up that others might not.
But if someone or some people were upset by the joke enough that it was removed, I don’t think it warrants more than “oh a shame, I liked that. But ah well.”
To quote Garrosh, times change. Which holds truth to it. Society changes, things progress differently. Things become less or more accepted. If we just went by that things didn’t matter before, we’d have alot of bad things still today.
WoW is also not like a book or show that just stays the same/can be put a label on “this was made in a different time.”. It changes with the times as well. So it’s perfectly natural and I think also in order, that it is updated to better suit todays society.
So you think. You don’t know how it affects them. Beyond that it was clearly not wanted by at the very least, those who have the power to not have it there anymore.
I don’t know, but normally companies don’t pull out the exact messages they recieved, but often a general “we got alot of this”.
You can show dislike and contempt in many ways though. It doesn’t need to be funneled into these kind of changes, unless it is something you have a problem with specifically because of the changes.
I’m pretty open about how much I dislike Danuser and alot of the writing and choices from both staff, devs and writers. But I still think things like this is positive. It doesn’t lesser my dislike, it’s more of a “Okay, good. You’re still bad though. Keep working.”
This is true.
If I would come with an actual solution/suggestion to that for them. I’m not a technical person, but I don’t think it would be hard to make the mailbox have a bot that filters out emails using certain search words.
They already got that with the forums clearly from how fast we’ve seen many of us get blasted for the dumbest things.
Yes.
From Straw Argument analogies to Godwin’s Law, lmao.
I’m not against everything they do. For example, they finally pulled the ripcord, for one (even though that has it’s own nest of vipers about how they managed to be dumb about that too, which I will not get into now).
But the vast, vast majority of the changes they are now pulling are completely asinine, worthless and pointless. Even after they promised to us things would change. It’s the constant lying that I have a problem with, and the arrogance. And until those two changes, my view on them won’t either.
Pot calling the kettle black.
With all those caveats it sure does seem weird to make a big deal about them being removed then huh?
Oh, I don’t mean that. They could have simply stated that “ok so we did a poll/we got x amount of feedback messages that asked this thing about this”, but they for some reason opted not to do that either.
Equally, one could make the argument and point out that if they are so insignificant, why change them in the first place?
More great and breathtaking arguments at 8.
Okay that’s fair. I don’t think it’s much to ask for some more openness about these discussions or something like that.
Especially not when they have several times over now claimed to listen more to feedbacks.
Yeah, that’s the thing. It’s the lying and arrogance that I take most issue with.
If for example one of the devs came out and said he wanted to change the johny awesome lines because the person who made them made her feel rly uncomfortable in the business and every time they look at those lines they are reminded of the awful things that person did to them, I would no doubt have sympathy for them. I’d still think that it is bad on the long run if we allow things in a video game get under our skin, but I’d still approve of a change because I’d understand they simply can’t deal with it atm, and it’s not a big deal.
But no, instead, they lie once more. So it’s become a boy that cried wolf situation.
Why I understood is that alot of the changes were requested either by developers or Twitter crowd (and we know what awful tiny worlds that is).
Going passed these forums, mmo-champ, wowhead and some discord servers I’m in, none were really asked for and at most the majority of people are indifferent towards them or openly hostile and a small, small, small minority supports them.
Also, Vixinator, if I understand you and Nerth corretly you are for these changes because if it makes someone uncomfortable it should be changed?
But by that logic (to me atleast) the same could be said about the presence of meat/skinning and war in the game. There’s always going to be someone offended, uncomfortable, or not happy with parts of the game, but we can’t keep removing/changing things to please everyone, we’d end up with an unplayable game!
Heck, if Blizzard would change everything into grey blobs we’d have people insulted by the colour of the blob!
That said, personally I am mostly indifferent towards these changes presently, I realised I’m never going to change opinions or stop the changes that just seem weird to me (like the mindslave now bieng docile because of beatings and torture instead of brain surgery).
On a sidenote, anyone else’s WoW extremely laggy since the reset? It’s almost become unplayable in raids for me at the moment 