PTR Spoiler/Discussion Thread (Part 1)

Nope, I don’t.

I’m arguing for the content to remain as a time capsule, rather than simply be dust binned because someone has paper thin skin and thinks an ancient ( community spawned ) joke about blood elf males and the celestial steed is something more than it is.

Perhaps they should deal with it instead. Do you see how stupid this line of reasoning is? How circular and pointless the argument becomes? This is the death of discussion.

The design of the game already funnels people away from things like Johnny Awesome. A new player is never going to even see him on their first character. But his mere existence is disgusting enough to remove?

Same with most of the /silly and /flirt lines, odds are they won’t even hear them unless they go out of their way to explore the archaic chat system we have, and how the game mutes other players emotes unless they’re in the same instance or party as you.

On that we agree.

Blood Elves are minorities now? I thought they were a fictional race.

And I know you’ll come back to this with “It’s a joke about the LGBTQ+ communities”.

To which I will simply say: No, it is not. It’s a joke about Blood Elves, coming from the community of WoW’s own voiced opinions about them spanning years.

Is it dumb and cringe? Yes. But it’s still just a joke about Blood Elves as seen by 2010’s WoW playerbase.

Are you certain about that? It’s my opinion based on the twitter posts made by WoW devs who were vocal about these changes. How am I strawmanning my own opinion.

Vixi, I really do think you’re a nice person. Truly, I do. I want to stress that here and now because frankly I don’t want bad blood. Our niche hobby is small enough as it is without us going at each others throats.

And that’s fair enough, but that is the slippery nature of humour. Like, I’ll use an example of my own to support your point and add my own thought on the end.

There’s a scottish comedian out there who, frankly, I think is hilarious. But he regularly dunks on the English. Sometimes I find that incredibly uncomfortable.

But I’d rather he still told that joke than have someone come around later and edit it out because it was offensive to me.

You’re not. Warcraft’s developers basically are by removing and editing these jokes out.

Basically my overall opinion but I am trying to be as eloquent as I can in trying to explain and explore my opinion on the subject. I am sad that these are going, because to me they were harmless.

I won’t change my opinion on the warcraft developers and what I believe to be their reasoning behind these removals, I truly think they are lacking in character if they see something as harmless as a Ceelo Green written song reference being recontextualised as a flirt and go “I don’t want that in this game anymore, it makes me uncomfortable”.

By this reasoning, all media should get the ol’ nip and tuck. Which is frankly illogical and, imo, needlessly destructive. I know you’re not making that point, I am as a logical outreach of this stance.

Thanks, I try to engage the old almonds.

I don’t, but I can draw on my own experiences and compare to what has been publicly stated. Evidently, it’s affected them so badly that they must nuke it all from orbit to be sure.

I’d rather they stand as part of WoW’s history, rather than be swept away in a tidal wave of petty vengeance.

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Short answer, yes.

Long answer touches on this:

True, you won’t be able to please everyone. And people might be upset or offended by things I find outlandish. I think personally is simply where to decide on where to draw the line.

Warcraft for example has war, it has a fantasy setting, it has death, it has meat/skinning. But as a setting it doesn’t have racism in our sense of the world. Hatred of other species exists, but a black person won’t be discriminated because of their skin colour in human society. Women will also not be discriminated for simply being women. A queer person won’t be for who they are, and so on. These things have been stated to not exist within the Warcraft universe.

To then have jokes or references to such things is not only contradictory, but also bad. There is also context. A vegeterian or vegan seeing meat/skinning might not be that nice for them depending on the person. But they are not being mocked for it existing. Nor are they a group of people that have been historically discriminated for this.

A woman or black person seeing a joke about how women/black people are dumb/stupid or something else might take alot more issue with it because it is something they might have, or still do, experience in real time. It’s also things that do happen and has happened in our history.

So it is not appropriate to have in a game that is also sold to be appealing to a general audience.

I believe the same, I think you are nice as well. I know I can be snappy easily to people or sassy, but I geniuenly do not dislike anyone here. There’s only a handful of people I can count on my hand that do, and they are not forum regulars here, or atleast not anymore, and all of them are not people I respond to.

This is a fair point yeah, but like I said with my previous example, I think it matters where this joke takes place.

WoW is meant to be for a general audience from all walks of life, so I think it needs to reflect that.

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I will politely disagree with this entire notion, Vixi. I think it’s impossible to make something so wide-reaching as to be inoffensive to every single person in every single situation.

Unless you’re an Argent Dawn-EU Stormwind City Roleplayer then it apparently exists.

I hate that. I really, really do.

I could go on a long yard-arm rant about how the average Stormwind City human doesn’t act at all like Stormwind humans in lore but I will spare us all that essay.

I think there’s a small bit you’re missing from this. WoW is for people from all walks of life who wanted to come to Azeroth, as a setting. And in that setting we had Blood Elf men who knew they were smoking hot and used that as a flirt and a joke.

Or all the war, actual grape, violence, and more. We came to this game to escape reality.

The game shouldn’t reflect our reality, it should reflect it’s own and the values therein. And yes, that includes seemingly innocuous things like jokes and flirting, or ancient things like Johnny Awesome ( who I am convinced is actually an eldritch being. Man that’d be a really cool reveal! ) who is literally just a vessel for then-Blizzard to join in the then held community joke about Blood Elves.

If something in this setting offends someone, it’s not on the setting to change to suit them. It’s on them to either understand that this is the setting as presented, or perhaps go “Maybe this isn’t for me”.

As I’ve said, and others have said, it’s impossible to please everyone. But it is possible to please those who enjoy Warcraft.

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No, in this setting blood elves are a dour and bitter people who are highly jaded against public displays of wealth, luxury and comfort and they carry themselves with antiquated formality to the point of other races finding it difficult to read them, leading to an almost uncanny appearance. They’re beautiful to the point it feels wrong.

The flirts and jokes are a meta insert and not an accurate representation of the races identity and culture, unless you want to go down that rabbit hole of different movies and other pop culture references used in those flirts being tangible things that happened in this setting too which, frankly, would be very weird of you.

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Alright, yeah I get where you’re coming from. It’s fair enough, I still find it abit weird but meh, aslong as I get to play gnomes (the best, friendliest race) I’m fine with it!

Orc women were though, it’s been referenced multiple times too! With WoD, I think, bieng the most recent!

:looks_at_Silvermoon: Y… Yeah so against that.

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They should really, really work on showing this more then.

But then again, that would require effort.

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which should be the no. 1 reason for removing all the chaff imho

i don’t think they’ve removed enough. Slash it, I say

yeah honestly true, they should just remove flirting altogether, flirting is cringe

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god i hate social interaction. Remove the chat system.

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Lord Ortellus speaks harshly, but truly

And remove Ortellus while you’re at it Blizzard, his nose offends me.

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[User was banned for this post.]

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…Which is why their stores, inns, streets, archtitecture etc looks like it’s a careful, rococochian masterpiece where all life is plentiful, lark and most of your irritations are taken care by automatons powered by an invisible force most elves can control with the flick of their fingers.

I do understand that some part of BE culture is about what you say- But to say that these parts are not a common, no, solid foundation of it, is frankly untrue.

Many things are meta inserts. Pandaren very infamously so, that became a very solid part of the setting. They are not automatically bad things.

I think you’re the one that’s already neck-deep in the rabbit hole because of an awful exaggeration you’re trying to pull here.

The jokes + flirts were fine, that’s all there is to it, and they are being changed because some people let a video game get under their skin. That is weird.

:pray:

I see you’ve forgotten about Lord Fallowmere who out of the blue has this random piece of dialogue, because random humour is funny.

" <Lord Fallowmere coughs.>

This is awkward…

Good job out there with the robot. You caught me a little off guard. I didn’t realize the little girl was so…

<Lord Fallowmere points to his temple and twirls his finger around.>

Special…

Well, whatever gets the job done, right? Am I right?

Probably.

Have some ice cream."

The extra layer of the “belves are women lol” humour is that the (few) people who flagellate that joke to death could probably do to spend a bit more time pruning and taking care of themselves.

But my (objectively true) two penneth is it’s a dumb joke from like two tongue in cheek quests (one is mocking the playerbase) and that one human woman who comments on her high elf captain. This is countered by how elves are depicted in the books and the serious end of the quests. :nerd_face:

With that said, you don’t really see much of it anymore. It was big from TBC to Cataclysm, mind. I object to the quests purely because they are in the same seat as Uldum; trash and meme tier that overstay their welcome by an entire zone. Cataclysm was absolute feces in parts. I’d redo Hillsbrad and Uldum at the drop of a hat tbqh for an actually engaging story line.

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Pretty much the era of Johnny Awesome’s conception.

's almost as if it’s just a joke with no subtext or ‘punching down’ elements. Just a joke aimed at the community that perpetuated a frankly dumb notion about blood elves looking like girls.

'cus Blood elves are one of the most based races in the setting imo.

I think Blizzard are culpable of this to some degree, I swear 100% that they have also made these jokes but i’ll need to look and validate it. But it is ringing bells in my :brain: .

But yeah, dour and somber elves with a fall from grace trope. Good :ok_hand: :weary: poop.

Almost like the the lead narrative designer during Cataclysm was a webcomic creator who’s webcomic consisted solely of mocking WoW (and then he went on be lead narrative for Hearthstone where the same style of wacky humour is still applauded for some reason)

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yeah, probably. But I still don’t see the harm in Johnny Awesome because of that context that he’s literally a community creation.

Oh yeah Fargo Flintlocke right? Gods I’ve not read that webcomic in years.

'cus it’s part of Warcraft’s appeal. It was able to be serious, but also poke a bit of fun at itself.