PTR Spoiler/Discussion Thread (Part 2)

I’m sure some people would see “But the Old God Whispers did it!” as a cop out, but I think it’s an interesting angle given we pretty much know that Shadow and especially Void tend to amplify what is already there.

Imagine Genn, still driven by his desire for vengeance and revenge for his son.
Gallywix, with the riches of Azeroth’s own blood, and all the technology that could be made, his to plunder and exploit.
The Orcs, long having an uneasy situation with the Kaldorei, and both sides steadily becoming more bloodthirsty as the fighting escalates.
The Humans, usually one of the most diplomatic races of the Alliance, feeling the urge to deal with the Forsaken issue once and for all.

And so on, and so forth. Until those resistant or even immune to the whispers realise everyone is being manipulated, by which point it’s already too late, and Azshara reveals herself as the attack vector all along.
We could have had BFA → Naga Expansion → Old Gods Expansion. It could have been glorious damn it all…

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Tell me more of this idea of yours!

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Oh well, since you asked-
-Cracks knuckles-

Prelude; I simply wouldn’t have killed off Vol’jin at the start of Legion. Rather than some half-baked mumbo jumbo ‘forshadowing’ that we got, which was a huge nothingburger tbh, I would take the chance to introduce Bwomsamdi now, and have him, Vol’jin and Sylvanas have a talk on the threshold of the Other Side.

Bwom points out that, while usually he’d be more than happy to nab a Warchief’s soul, having the entire world dead and their souls ground down into Fel Dust is ‘bad for business’. Instead, him and Vol’jun cut a deal; Vol’jin will bind himself to Bwom and him alone (much like Rastakhan did in how BFA turned out), while haggling to allow the Shadow Hunters the choice to do the same, making a jibe on whether Bwom would be happy being as much a tyrant as the Legion, which ultimately he relents on while laughing it off, as he does.

Vol’jin is purged of the Fel wound (a little painfully; it’s still death magic and Bwom, at the end of the day) but survives. Since he’s bound to Bwomsamdi, he doesn’t want to have that influence the Horde, and still suggests that Sylvanas takes the mantle of Warchief. At first she wants to refuse, until he points out she used to be a Ranger General, and is used to defending ‘her people’. Although she counters that she failed that already, Vol’jin notes she has a second chance here. End result, she accepts, albeit begrudgingly.


So! We’ve just come out of Legion; the world has been Sword Stabbed, we’ve drained the artefacts to remove the Fel poisoning, the Earthen Ring and Cenarion Circle are doing their thing, yada yada. The factions have been working together so long, surely peace is on the cards now, right?

Well, wrong. Anduin is now King, but he’s taking advice primarily from Genn (Velen taking the time to see to his people and also a damn break, given they finally beat the Legion) and the likes of Admiral Rogers. Turalyon may well be in the background too. Ultimately, though, the advisors are watching the Horde (or, rather, Gallywix) grabbing as much Azerite as they can, experimenting with it, etc.

Genn, being Genn, insists that it’s a matter of time before the Horde, especially under Sylvanas, rally and attack them. With multiple voices urging it (including the Jaina we got a good glimpse of in the Warbringers trailer), Anduin agrees to their plan. The Seige of Lordaeron happens pretty much as is, though tbh we could cut the whole Saurfang arc or at least this segment of it.

With the Horde on the back foot, certain Commanders urging for them to strike back and secure Kalimdor against any possible attacks, and Gallywix offering his new armaments (at a reasonable price, of course) Sylvanas and the other leaders conclude that it’s safer for them to push Alliance forces back before they march on Orgrimmar, Thunderbluff, etc. They can still feint towards Silithus - after all, that’s where most of the Azerite mining is going on - and then we get Darkshore as a retaliation to Lordaeron.

The Old God angle should be seeded early on for the arc to work; the War of Thorns starts out pretty much as previous, but the fighting gets fiercer and fiercer. Personally, I’d have had Sylvanas and some of the other more established Forsaken (not all) be immune to the Whispers, so instead of being villain-batted for no good reason, you have them watching as their troops get more and more bloodcrazed.
The end goal was simply to force the Kaldorei off the mainland, and then set up a naval garrison and shore battery to keep watch. Instead, you get Sylvanas watching as Azerite empowered rocket batteries, mages, etc launch at Teldrassil. No more ‘intercontinental’ Demolishers, Azerite was the perfect tool to use here and make sense, as well as show how dangerous it is when misused.


The rest of main BFA can continue quite similarly, though personally I’d look at whether it would work better not having Zul go off the deep end?
Rastakhan and Rezan I would change; rather than having Rezan get offed and turned into a Dungeon boss, I’d instead use Vol’jin’s link with Bwomsamdi to offer the Horde a very useful Favour Owed; save Rezan’s soul and restore the Loa of Kings, thus saving the King, and putting the Zandalari in their debt. Also a win for the Darkspear, where the ‘lesser’ tribe actually proves potent enough to stand on equal terms.

Rather than petering off into “Oops, we did a violence” though, the culminating arc would be the realisation that draining all this Azerite is leading to the weakening of the Old Gods prison. The realisation is had that the Alliance and Horde are both being driven to more and more violence by the incessant whispers, thus using more Azerite, spilling more blood, and fuelling a downward spiral. Azshara, having acted through the Tide Sages and the greedy mind of Gallywix and his cronies, reveals herself with full arrogance and evil laughter as befits her normal style.

I haven’t figured who the ‘Final Raid Boss’ for BFA would be in my version, but we wouldn’t see Nazjatar and related environs until the next expac. We’d likely have Gallywix and Ashvane, fully hopped up on Azerite and Old God Whispers, as bosses somewhere, and although the factions would manage to stop them, the finale would reveal that it was too late; Azshara has at least partially broken the seal on the Old Gods prison, and now we’ve got to do something about that.


Lead into the Naga expac, before we finally have to deal with the Old Gods resurgent and Nyalotha in the second expac. Could always hint at the Void Lords as the greater evil behind the scenes, as well as if we did defeat the Old Gods that being enough to finally draw their attention.

No villain-bat for Sylvanas. Azshara getting to be the Big Bad properly, as well as having the showdown between her and Tyrande that has been so long overdue, as well as possibly mending relations between the Night and Blood Elves, at least a bit. Saurfang could still have his ‘go out in a blaze of glory’, maybe with Anduin and Wrathion throwing him their respective weapons when he YOLOs at the Avatar of N’zoth, as Muh Honour overpowers the Void Whispers long enough for him to do some damage.

Regardless; Not. Shadowlands. Cos that was stupid.

/Rant

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(I’d also go further back and make Garrosh, while still a headstrong, arrogant and fighty whatsit, not pointlessly Bad. Also save Cairne until Broken Shore, where he does die, and passes the torch to Baine.

Also have Garrosh and Varian go out in a dual blaze of glory. While Garrosh gets to throw Gorehowl at Gul’dan, and nearly take his arm off :ok_hand: )

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The plans for MoP definitely changed to some extent between 5.0 and 5.3.

When 5.0 launched, there was a series of four achievements, titled as chapters, for Wrathion’s legendary questline, but only the first one was obtainable in 5.0:

  • Chapter I: Trial of the Black Prince
  • Chapter II: Wrathion’s War
  • Chapter III: The Two Princes
  • Chapter IV: Judgment of the Black Prince

When 5.3 launched, it changed the name of Chapter IV to “Celestial Blessings” while adding a then-unobtainable Chapter V: Judgment of the Black Prince, which became obtainable in 5.4. So yes, they inserted an extra step that wasn’t originally supposed to be there.

I also never understood why Chapter III was named “The Two Princes” when Anduin just sat in an inn recovering and doing nothing and wasn’t important to the plot besides some flavor dialogue with Wrathion.

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I’m sure they will find a way, as is tradition.

Yes, having flown around both zones, I’d say Amirdrassil feels less night elfy than Teldrassil. It feels fey and whimsical, which was fitting for an Emerald Dream zone, but not so much for one meant for night elves.

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Atleast when you saw “Brigante is typing…” for a good half an hour, you knew you were in for an eloquent post that usually contained equal amounts of wit and knowledge. Can’t say I knew him well or talked to him much, but he often had interesting stuff to say.

Then we have this guy.

I actually once wrote a very short-story in which Garrosh chose to be exactly that, I might still have it somewhere. Basically, it deals with him actually taking the time to think his actions through after they destroyed Fort Triumph and were ready to march on Theramore. Instead he chooses to take the city the conventional way, and listen to Baine and Vol’jin.

The story does not deal with how the rest of the war would continue ( I still maintain that the war that began in Cataclysm with Garrosh as Warchief should’ve been called the Fourth War, BfA was the Fifth War. What was Blizz thinking?).

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I’d have leaned more on the Megatron-like angle for Garrosh. His intentions aren’t terrible? But his methods are brute force and, realistically, not really Good.

I’d just have liked him semi-falling to the Sha in MoP, only to be confronted with the fact he’s becoming a pawn, and throwing off the Void-stuff.

WoW can do good, big-dumb-actiony stuff. And there’s nothing wrong with that, inherently. It just needs good set up and payoff.
See: Varian soloing a Fel Reaver like a big damn (suicidal) hero.

Edit: I will take Big Dumb, Blockbuster Action Scene over the terrible attempts at 4D moral grey chess play ANY damn day of the week… Warcraft has some good ones of one of those, and none of the other.

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This has big copypasta energy. I approve.

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Not a bad one! I will admit, I wrote mine with Anachronos’ mentioning of how Garrosh was the Horde’s greatest hero in many a timeline in the back of my head. What would it take for Garrosh to -be- that hero? Rather than the ‘one of his worst possible incarnations’ that we got in the true timeline.

It’s clearly where their strength lies more. Imagine if Garrosh had still been alive and it’d have been him and Varian leading the charge at the Broken Shore. Even if things still went chest up, I could just imagine those two bantering while racing on who gets to Gul’dan first. Heck, maybe it’d be a throwback to Bolvar Fordragon and Dranosh Saurfang at the Wrathgate.

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I mean, they could’ve given Vol’jin cool action stuff. Dude can punch holes through Mogu after Shadow of the Horde. It’s not like he was lacking in any way.

Blizz just decided to “even out” the Alliance losing Varian so Vol’jin had to get the axe. Or the spear, I guess.

Absolutely terrible and stupid decision, and always will be. Boo. Boo I say.

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Which I also would’ve been fine with. Mine was more a 'what-if idea if Garrosh had lived". Since I reckon he would’ve still been the Warchief if he did.

But indeed, its been a while since I read Shadow of the Horde and I forgot that tidbit. That -is- pretty metal.

I think if he were to say Warchief you’d have to radically alter the end of MoP and skip WoD entirely before getting to Legion, which wouldn’t make sense without WoD.

I can see MoP ending similarly to how it did, and leading to WoD, while still keeping Garrosh alive, and growing as a character, and having his finale at Broken Shore.
Also make the Legion in WoD and Gul’dan in present day make more sense, for being a ‘divergent timeline’. (None of that ‘one Legion’ utter guff…)

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How though? For WoD to happen we kinda do need a Garrosh that still believes in orc supremacy, else he probably wouldn’t go along with Kairoz’ plan in the first place. Unless Kairoz’d somehow decide on his own he needs a new Orcish Horde.

And without Garrosh present, the Iron Horde would’ve still just been the original Orcish Horde under Gul’dan’s control. Which I am pretty sure Garrosh would do battle against.

Still, I’m not entirely sure -how- I would make that work.

Simple really.

Rewrite MoP so it’s Jaina that gets villain-batted. Just swap the two around. Garrosh becomes good Warchief, Jaina goes on time shenanigans with the Iron Alliance.

You can still follow the plot points where Kairoz frees Garrosh during his trial (In my imagined version, him throwing off the Sha in the end and previously having become amiable with the Bloodhoof’s makes them standing on his side during the trial which he agrees to a little less “Why, though?”)

Rather than messing with ‘Similar but not’ timeline writing nonsense, having every time they come back to Draenor’s past create a divergent timeline that Kairoz believes they can ‘harvest’ for Horde’s free of demonic taint makes more sense to me.
And Garrosh can still backstab him for clearly being a bit loony/not wanting to be a pawn for Kairoz. Instead, I think a relatively decent motivation for Garrosh would be simply saving his Dad.
All the stigma and then all the pressure and heritage placed on Garrosh? All comes from Grom. What happens if Grom never drank the demon blood? No heritage for Garrosh to be pressued by.

Of course, then you have the lead up to the Iron Horde, and I’m sure between the Warlords you could wind up there. So, while Garrosh saves his father and is in a decent position in the Warsong, you still end up with events leading to the Adventurers coming through the Dark Portal and collapsing it again.
Thrall meeting up with Garrosh in Nagrand and having a very different encounter is entirely possible, then. You can still have Garrosh vent his frustration at all the problems Thrall caused him over the years, regardless of his intent. But, in the end, Thrall and Garrosh ‘saving’ Grom is a pretty common cause, and also undoing the damage the divergent timeway has/can cause.


For me, the end point of this splintered timeway would be Archimonde getting beaten and forced back towards the Twisting Nether portal, as Bronze Dragons that join the PCs later on start to erase his memory of this divergence. Not to be denied, Archimonde shears a fragment of Gul’dan’s soul and yeets it through the portal.

What this causes in the present is that the Past happened as intended, but Gul’dan, as his soul didn’t entirely die, is able to be ressurected in the present day, probably by the Dreadlords.
And then we get Legion.

Edit: Also, because in the main timeline Yrel died, and in this divergent timeline her family are all gone anyway, there’s wiggle room for Yrel to instead come to Azeroth. This could tie nicely in to her being surprised to find (our) Velen alive and well, and him realising another prophecy has come true, and the Legion are imminent.

Edit Edit: Damn it all, I can see that scene so vividly I want to write it up. Gimme that writers hat, Blizz, I’ll fix the mess you made…

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Does she go back to Lordaeron and stop the plague instead?
Or to Draenor when the Expedition is there and get an army from them?