Raidfinder too easy!

[Thodric-anachronos]

@Osangar-aszune

Everyone quotes that the decline of WoW came with adding in LFD/LFR but what if the opposite was true. What if the only reason WoW still has the numbers it does is because of of the implementation of these systems. Can anyone give let me know if there are any MMOs out there which have retained as large a proportion of their player-base after such a long time?

That is an excellent point. It’s easy to look at the decline in WoW subscribers and blame x, y and z change (that poster doesn’t personally like). However, the gaming industry has changed an awful lot since the peak of WoW in 2010 and maybe the reason for the decline is simply that there’s just far more competition.

League of Legends was launched in 2009 and has become very, very popular in China. The MMO PvP gameplay modelled on one (non-RPG) part of WoW is probably a big reason why China has far few WoW subscribers than in 2010. More recently, there’s Fortnite as the cool game for the nerdy kids to play (which was once WoW). The tech has changed too - the iPad was released in 2010 and opened up a whole new level of competition in the gaming industry.

WoW is a game from a bygone era, in that it’s so complex and has so many different aspects to it whereas the majority of current successes are pretty straight-forward. You don’t need to gear up and grind rep to play Rocket League competitively! Blizzard are making a real go of keeping it going in its traditional format, as they could have either cut their losses or rebooted the game as a different type of thing. Most games these days are very accessible and very easy to play at a low level. Can we really blame Blizzard for making changes to WoW that make it more accessible and easier to play at a low level?

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

@Tahen-pozzo-delleternità

i really don’t get why there is no vendor for this kind of stuff, or even simplier why the LFR transmog is not rewarded directly when you clear an higher difficulty.

Ohhh, you want freebies?
Right.

Is it then wrong that people doing LFR ask for mythic mogs (not the gear, just the mogs) ?

[Belami-chamber-of-aspects (Belami)]

LFR helps boost the number of people doing the raid, which in turn (I assume) makes it easier for the raid designers to get more of the budget to design the raids.

But then again, maybe it’s better with cheap raids like Argent Colosseum so raiders can once again feel superior in peace.

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

@Belami-chamber-of-aspects

But then again, maybe it’s better with cheap raids like Argent Colosseum so raiders can once again feel superior in peace.

Only if they totally disengage the story from raids and make any transmogs able to be farmed somewhere else.

[Kooki-silvermoon (Kooki)]

In MoP when I was still a fairly new player it was raid finder that got me interested in raiding and when winged flex was introduced I delved into raiding in the higher difficulties. The practice and gear that I got in LFR gave me confidence to reach higher and I eventually went on to clear SoO on heroic on my warlock main at that time. I’ve never thought of LFR as a bad thing because of this reason.

I’ve stopped raiding higher than LFR now mostly for personal reasons but when I was raiding in higher difficulties LFR was always a place I could go to for practice and I liked having that as an option.

LFR has plenty of good reasons to exist in this game. If you don’t like it or need it then just stay away from it. Please don’t try take it away from those that want or need it in their game.

[Tèsla-silvermoon (Tèsla)]

I couldnt reassume better my pov. Just with wotlk instead mop

[Shadowstepz-ravencrest (Shadowstepz)]

It’s ok Punyelf, you don’t need to stoop to their level, you are respected in the community, do not let their aggressive behavior get to you, I stopped writing to the specific individual as well because they become aggressive and say dumb things like I will never reply to you etc and then play the victim when things or opinions do not match their own. Don’t worry about it, most of us read both your posts and support your view point as well.

[Khyrneken-ragnaros (Khyrneken)]

Aha, fair enough! ^^ I just don’t want them nerfed too much. And really I want my damn Zandalins right now!

They can always tweak the racials in some major “Racial Patch” if they deem that Racials are imbalanced across Factions ^^

@Punyelf-draenor

When people are rude I just can’t be bothered.

Once someone starts insulting you and not adding to or defending their argument, then you win!

[Tahen-pozzo-delleternità]

@Tahra-earthen-ring

Ohhh, you want freebies?
Right.
Is it then wrong that people doing LFR ask for mythic mogs (not the gear, just the mogs) ?

Sort of. They’re transmog, not item to use. If i clear a higher difficulty, why not? It’s the other way around that is wrong. All those recolor are there to mark the difficulty reached by each player, if you clear heroic should you be forced into lfr which is basically dummy practice for a recolor of the same item?
Viceversa, if you can’t go past lfr or normal you should not have access to myth transmog.

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

@Tahen-pozzo-delleternità

If i clear a higher difficulty, why not?

Because that’s not how it works. You don’t get rewards for content you didn’t do. And LFR is seperate content. So no, I don’t think you deserve freebies.

@Tahen-pozzo-delleternità

It’s the other way around that is wrong.

And this kind of thinking it just so hypocritical. No, the other way around isn’t any more wrong than what you are proposing.

@Tahen-pozzo-delleternità

if you clear heroic should you be forced into lfr

You aren’t forced into it in any way. You go there by your own choice. Either because you want a (very very tiny) chance at a high TF or because you want some specific drop. That’s your choice.

@Tahen-pozzo-delleternità

Viceversa, if you can’t go past lfr or normal you should not have access to myth transmog.

That’s not viceversa. You want it one way, but not the other. Seems very unfair and a onesided way of looking at it. Anyway, I do agree with your statement, but not your weird twisted reverse opinion.

In short; you want free stuff. You’re not getting it. Earn it.

[Ishayu-frostmane (Ishayu)]

@Celadina-doomhammer

I suffer from that aswell its a stress disorder which many will come across in there lifes at some point .

Yes. I won’t go too much into it, but as mentioned she was 17 and had a two year old child. You can infer the rest I’m sure.

Anyway, it would be significantly better to focus on features to make handicapped people more capable, rather than pulling the entire game down to people who are handicapped. Since a handicap can be literally anything that involves the body or mind not fully working, there are just some handicaps you cannot compensate for.

For people with only 1 hand, the WoW Mouse or Razer Naga did a wonderful job, and Blizzard pretty much didn’t have to do anything. They already allow you to look around and move using only the mouse. Another example is colour blindness support - won’t see me complain about that, I assure you!

But sometimes you just can’t make the game accessible without ruining it. It’s sad, but we don’t want the tail to wag the dog. The people with these handicaps probably have a lot of other things they could be doing anyway.

@Celadina-doomhammer

This coming from you confuses me alot you want (i think we all do tbh) want alot of RPG aspect back and i agree with it but at same time you want other things removed .
One should never remove anything just enhance and refine things .
Make LFR a lil tougher if thats your wish but dont remove it .

This is such a wrong way to look at game design. It’s so easy to add something that completely short circuits the whole point of the game - and you can’t refine the problems away. It’s just a bad idea.

For example, if I make a great ~2 hour procedural puzzle game that’s all about speedrunning and then add a button that skips me to the end, and I then curate the scoreboard to include both types of runs, I’ve made the game objectively worse. Something in the above just has to go. Less is more, see?

If you make LFR tougher you just end up randomly creating endless groups that can’t clear content full of people who cannot or refuse to work together. Blizzard tried that in patch 4.0, essentially, it was a colossal disaster. Hard/coordinated content and group finders do not mix. It really, really is that simple.

@Punyelf-draenor

I have never claimed to have any authority.

Yeah, that’s why you get to constantly tell me that Blizzard will never listen to me because only your opinion matters and the discussion is settled, while simultaneously calling me closeminded. There is only so many times I can present a case with it being dismissed without even considering the first sentence of it before I get frustrated and call you out on it.

Go ahead and call me venomous for pointing that out. Whatever. We’re completely through.

[Celadina-doomhammer]

@Ishayu-frostmane

Another example is colour blindness support - won’t see me complain about that

Oh i will complain that for a long time its awful compared to other games and with such a broad spectrum they could and should do better and they even admit it so .

As for your other points we are both going around in circles so i guess we have to agree to disagree on those .

As for the closeminded comment that was me not Puny accuseing you of that so i think your displeasure is misplaced ,i just want you to look at a broad picture that is all and learn from my past mistakes and post in a more calm manner .
Puny is not your enemy here its blizzards ethos she is aand i am just passing onto you what they have said thats all dont shoot the messenger

[Punyelf-draenor (Punyelf)]

@Ishayu-frostmane

Yeah, that’s why you get to constantly tell me that Blizzard will never listen to me because only your opinion matters and the discussion is settled, while simultaneously calling me closeminded. There is only so many times I can present a case with it being dismissed without even considering the first sentence of it before I get frustrated and call you out on it.

Go ahead and call me venomous for pointing that out. Whatever. We’re completely through.

It is my opinion. This is a discussion, a debate. I do not believe Blizzard will ever remove LFR. I do think it’s narrowminded to want to remove content (in this case LFR) from others.

I have never called you venomous. You called me it.

[Ishayu-frostmane (Ishayu)]

No, you definitely presented it as more than your opinion. You literally said you don’t understand why I even bothered to discuss it because they’d never change it anyway. Any argument I was trying to make that removing it might actually make the game better for players who it’s aimed at was summarily completely ignored.

Even now, you say the post you just quoted said you called me venomous, but it doesn’t. You just don’t read my posts. You skim over them briefly, ignore half the content, and manage to completely misunderstand everything in them. That’s just frustrating. I could ignore you, but the green text, and the fact that posters in here call me out when I ignore you or other posts, just makes that really bloody difficult.

@Celadina-doomhammer

Oh i will complain that for a long time its awful compared to other games and with such a broad spectrum they could and should do better and they even admit it so .

I meant in the other direction - you won’t find me complain so it’s removed. I don’t know the specific deficiencies of it, but if anyone has good suggestions for improvements to it, I won’t stand in your way.

@Celadina-doomhammer

As for the closeminded comment that was me not Puny accuseing you of that so i think your displeasure is misplaced

It was not directed at you. I wrote that in response to a quote of Punyelf’s post.

[Punyelf-draenor (Punyelf)]

@Ishayu-frostmane

No, you definitely presented it as more than your opinion. You literally said you don’t understand why I even bothered to discuss it because they’d never change it anyway. Any argument I was trying to make that removing it might actually make the game better for players who it’s aimed at was summarily completely ignored.

Because that is my opinion. I didn’t agree the arguments you put forward. I think you are wrong. That is my opinion.

@Ishayu-frostmane

Even now, you say the post you just quoted said you called me venomous, but it doesn’t. You just don’t read my posts. You skim over them briefly, ignore half the content, and manage to completely misunderstand everything in them. That’s just frustrating. I could ignore you, but the green text, and the fact that posters in here call me out when I ignore you or other posts, just makes that really bloody difficult.

I have not called you venomous, you called me it. It’s strange that you are still attacking me. It’s strange that you feel the need to quote me and trigger a notification when you claim you don’t want to engage in a discussion with me.

Sometimes I can see why people want a change even if I don’t agree with it or it isn’t something I want myself. I can see that some like Titanforging, I can see why some don’t want flying etc. I actually can’t see any benefit of removing LFR at all. We just have completely opposite views and neither agrees with the other.

[Ishayu-frostmane (Ishayu)]

@Punyelf-draenor

Because that is my opinion. I didn’t agree the arguments you put forward. I think you are wrong. That is my opinion.

How about you start by stating this clearly instead of assering that there are “are no reasons”. There are reasons! You just disagree with them - even though you haven’t read them nor their justifications. That’s not the same as there being no reason!

@Punyelf-draenor

I have not called you venomous, you called me it. It’s strange that you are still attacking me. It’s strange that you feel the need to quote me and trigger a notification when you claim you don’t want to engage in a discussion with me.

I literally just told you I haven’t said you had called you venomous, and then you said you haven’t called me venomous like you disagree with me. You literally just did what I accused you of again. You do not read my posts and make dismissive remarks in response, and people actualy think it’s a good argument to do so. This blows my mind. I’m talking as much to them as I am to you.

At this point I’m honestly just defending myself by giving my response for any 3rd party that might read through it. The notification is something the forum does, but I accept that I am responsible that that happens.

@Punyelf-draenor

I actually can’t see any benefit of removing LFR at all.

Well I just listed a whole slew of them, but you didn’t read any of them, and then you proceeded to call me closeminded.

[Punyelf-draenor (Punyelf)]

I take everything people post as their opinion. I’m sorry if you ever took my opinion as anything else. Unless it’s one of those answering someone’s questions things.

I did read your points I just don’t agree with any of them and don’t see the benefit.

We just need to agree to differ is all

[Ishayu-frostmane (Ishayu)]

@Punyelf-draenor

I did read your points I just don’t agree with any of them and don’t see the benefit.

And instead of explaining yourself you just keep falling back on “You’re remoing content”. Any attempt to have a conversation about what is content and what is systems, and how can systems invalidate or shorten the lifetime of content or lead to a feeling of grinding - any of this - is completely ignored.

Then “They (Blizzard) won’t do it anyway” is reasserted, as if it’s a silver-bullet fact that shoots down all fine-grain discussion. That’s what got me.

You posting something like that from a green account made it even worse, because people started challenging me to respond to “the guy that was closer to Blizzard”. I know what green text means though - it basically means a couple of CM’s think you’re really nice and helpful, and that’s about it, and I don’t have a problem with it or them thinking it about you, but that just doesn’t register with a lot of people, and this is a public forum…

Anyway, we definitely disagree, and there is indeed no use arguing about it. We fundamentally disagree with what WoW’s goals should be, so… yeah… not much use at that point.

[Punyelf-draenor (Punyelf)]

OK I see the olive branch didn’t work and you just want to full on argue the same points all over again.

[Ishayu-frostmane (Ishayu)]

That was an olive branch?

That was a complete dismissal. Another one.

You didn’t even read it. You can’t read it in one minute.

Whatever. I’ll dismiss you in turn, finally. Done and done.