Raidfinder too easy!

With over 300.000 people watching world first Ghuun and Jaina this point is moot .WoW has been the top stream on twitch during these 2 recent races over all other game’s if that isnt a showcase for wow i dont know what is.

I dont think you have any clue what you are on about sadly sorry.

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Stop being aggressive? :slight_smile:

300.000 viewers, and you think none of these viewers doesn’t play wow? hahaha

why didnt you post on you hunter instead of swapping ?

I logged in wow and it swapped in browser for some reason

As someone who never pves at all, not sure what the problem is. People who never raid get to see the story if they want to? No one watches “LFR” on twitch - you watch pvers in mythic, asmongold or pvpers? Out of my normal friends I am the only one who plays WoW and I don’t think anyone has said its “easy” nowadays. It basically caters to whatever you want it to be (well almost, I kind of have to PvE to gear up in PvP but that’s a different matter).

Isn’t even like LFR would take “resources” from WoW since its just turning off tiers. Also gives terrible gear that is worse than AFKing in a warfront or “raiding” with warmode on…

Basically thousands of people play this game and all of them play for different reasons. Instead of going to the extreme of gating content such that no one sees it til the next expansion they’ve gated it by your own decisions. Not entirely sure how that is a bad thing. LFR is meant to be easy…

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OP out-gears normal but is doing LFR for upgrades…

Sounds legit.

Even if you needed the gear, why would you even bother doing LFR if you’re running normal. You can get the same ilvl stuff or better running mythic dungeons or mythic+.

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And don’t forget Darkshore warfront.

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Out of around two billion English words, “I” is tenth on the list. It’s easy to see why looking at this thread. You self-important brats who are calling for the removal of something aimed at an entirely different group of people than you really need a hard, long look in the mirror.

All you ever hear from some of the raiding community is whine, whine, whine. I have no content to do, I want this, I want that, I don’t like BfA but I’ll still play it.

Now because you have content to do, you invariably turn back to the people below you to whine some more.

I don’t like it that I am FORCED to go into LFR for runes and transmog! Then you throw your teddies out the pram when it’s pointed out to you that it doesn’t work like that.

Sometimes you can’t have everything your own way. That’s the only inalienable truth about this trainwreck of a thread.

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

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Lol, they’d remove mythic before LFR

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You both did.

Why are you so concerned with making LFR better for everyone as opposed to making the game itself better for everyone?

The problem is I just don’t know what I can possibly do with LFR in order to make it acceptable under the design philosophy that made WoW what it is, and I cannot for the life of me figure out what makes it compelling - and when someone does tell me some reasons for it to exist, which many have done, it’s usually because of something entirely unrelated to the activity of raiding, like “it has story” or "it got more into raiding (even though LFR doesn’t have the positive aspects of raiding as I’ll get into later)

The primary problem with LFR is that it fast forwards you to the end-boss, which means there is no reason to engage with all the content that is in the game that is designed to make you reach the end-boss, including all the social stuff, the professions, the other locations in the game, and all the stuff that makes raiding itself great, like teamwork and guilds and relationships with great likeminded players.

There is no reason to bother with doing dungeons or doing tradeskills and buying items or doing world quests or anything else like that if you can just ding, do warfronts for 4 hours, do LFR for 3 hours, and then you’ve done it. Technically you beat the last boss and saw every relevant location on your way to it. You’re done for all intents and purposes!

Feeling like you beat the game and accomplished anything within such a short amount of time is not good when the game is fundamentally designed to keep you engaged in an open world for many months building relationships and engaging with Azeroth’s problems and building your character. It’s also not good for Blizzard’s bottom line because if you only play for a week or two every 6 months, they get no subscription money, really.

So the solution that Blizzard came up with is to just timegate some of it, but that’s just so arbitrary, artificlal, and frustrating. People don’t like it. But if you don’t timegate it, you just timegate the next raid release, because there’s really nothing to do until that comes out, and that comes out after some time…

I agree with you that making LFR harder isn’t going to work. Being stripped of control over who you group with and then failing to achieve your goals regardless of how well you think you perform is just frustrating and leads to hostilities and toxicity. We saw that in patch 4.0, or any other time that LFD or LFR has been hard for a few bosses. I’ve heard horror stories of G’huun in Uldir because nobody wants to volunteer to take the orbs. It’s just a really toxic environment.

So we can’t make it harder and we can’t timegate it and letting people just run in and complete it undermines the entire rest of the game’s sense of discovery and progression, and therefore subs are cyclical and, even at their peaks, is no greater than it was before all of this.

Please tell me why this is good for anybody playing the game. I challenge you to tell me why 3 hours of convenient discovery is better for players than encouraging them to do everything else and then helping them along towards the end of the expansion to finishing it with excessive gear. How would you fix this without creating a frustrating experience and still keeping LFR, and please explain to me why all the coolest story must be told in raids.

Because from what I can see you, and many others, argue in favour of LFR because you don’t want something to go away, even if that thing is just… terrible. :confused:

I deleted a PURPLE from PVP for a BLUE from LFR - because im so stupid…They changed colour and I didn’t even notice, about time too :))

One thing i will say is LFR players dont see or beat the end boss until 2 months after Method does on hardest content.

They still give epics in the new LFR .

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Beating the last boss of the current raid is not exactly the only reason for me to play an MMO. I am pretty sure Method is not going to unsub till next tier.

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And to add to that beating the current boss is not reason to play for some players at all. They might do lfr to see that part of the story and then go do things that are their top goals in the game. :smiley:

But… it has. I mean, sure, experiencing the story might be of the least concern when raiding, but the story is relevant to the Raid. I am interested in WoW lore, and the Battle for Dazar’alor is, and I cannot stress this enough, key and fundamental to understand 8.1 lore. It has so many important events, such as the death of Rastakhan and the fate of Mekkatorque… does that mean I am required to actually have the full raiding experience, as you argued, if I am only interested in the story?

Sure, LFR is not really raiding, something I would never claim, but it at least offers the chance for under-geared and un-experienced players like me to know what is going on in Azeroth, and it feels unfair to lock important events behind professions, mythic+ dungeons, WQs, etc.

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In the same way beating the last boss of Skyrim isn’t the only reason I play Skyrim - but I can’t deny that when I beat him, it kind of feels like the game is over.

Method is not your typical player. We can’t look at them and infer anything about the behaviour of an LFR player.

Just for the sake of argument though: In fact they do pretty much quit after they’ve killed the last boss for most tiers, because there’s just nothing left to achieve. They literally go from 14 hour raid days every day to not even bothering to kill the last boss again. Method literally killed G’huun like… 3 times or something. And the only reason they farmed was to defeat the next tier fast.

Completely agree with all of this, but I also think it’s terrible. I don’t think you should have to play BfD in order to understand the 8.1 story, and even if you do, it’s not enjoyable to watch cinematics in the raid because you’re probably on voice comms and people won’t shut up, and if you don’t go there the first time people are skipping the cinematics and cutscenes and they get annoyed if you just stand there instead of clearing trash and so on.

The structure of BfD is terrible for a raid. Sure it’s got great bosses, and therefore it’s a good raid, but telling a story in this manner in a raid? It’s just really bad, I have to be honest.

And don’t even get me started about how the raid is now at a different point in the timeline than open world city of Dazar’alor is, similar to Siege of Boralus.

I mean it’s just terrible from every angle. Yeah they put some nice components together which somewhat conceals the fact that the idea is awful, but that doesn’t make the idea good really.

That story has to be moved out of raid or be made something you can experience another way. Might I suggest to Blizzard that we’re playing an MMORPG, and therefore we have mechanics like actually being able to invade cities can cause them to change for everyone, thus telling a story? I’m just saying.

No, absolutely not. That’d be ridiculous. I completely understand this concern, but it’s NOT a good argument in favour of LFR, at least not when creating new content. There’s no doubt BfD is FUBAR’d such that we need LFR for this reason. I’m talking about a future change, obviously.

Raids should be what the name implies - raids on enemy strongholds based upon story that happens leading up to it. Sure things can happen in there, but you need to be able to understand and see its effects outside somehow, and you should be able to find out what’s going on without going in there.

Unfair is definitely the wrong word. It’s not unfair, as much as it’s just going to lead you into something that’s less fun. Fair would imply it’s somehow uneven, but the amount of effort each of you has to put up to see the story beats is still equal, so it’s fair. It’s just not a good idea, as in an earlier quote to you.

That’s why my suggestion involves moving important story moments out of very hard content, but still having very hard content that is like “expanded universe” side-stories and trivias and cool things like that.

Raids should not be driving the main plot. It’s just a plain bad idea. Again, this is another thing The WoW Diary by John Staats mentions. Why did we lose this wisdom? Where did it go?

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I fully agree with this, if it is feasible.

I’ve been arguing this as well in other topics, so I can only day I agree.

I concede, it was not the best choice of words. What I meant to say was that something feels off with having to prepare for content you don’t really want to do anyway in order to fully understand the lore. But I think we would agree on that.

You are right.

LFR helps me to experience the Raid, but believe me, there are tons of others things I prefer doing over queueing for LFR. Except for the lore, I have no purpose in the new raid so if I could, I’d rather skip it. If Blizzard would finally take the lore out of the Raids and takes it to where it belongs (questlines), LFR woudnt be necessary for people like me.

So in terms of raids and lore, I fully agree with you.

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This is really true and really important, actually. Blizzard do tell some story in quests, but as you mention all the big and important things happen in raids, and the world doesn’t update to reflect this.

Quests may not be the right vehicle for this kind of action either - at least not on their own.

I’ll give two examples of what I would consider good storytelling in an MMORPG.

  1. The story of Darkshore

Instead of using scenarios, this story can be told as a chapter of the war campaign. The Night Elves gather in Ashenvale, phasing the zone entirely for everyone at max level (or even in general), and after doing a series of daily quests, including PvP quests, the Night Elves move up and establish Bashal’aran, whether you see it or not. Talking to Tyrande will give you a chance to experience this event either as a cinematic or as a scenario. This is okay - it’s a recollection you’re being told about, as opposed to a phasing or desync of the MMORPG world as such.

Now, controlling key points in the zone will gather resources, and completing dailies will accelerate it. The horde also gets quest to disrupt you, but they cannot entirely halt you. As you gather more resources, you can research and build units. The entire thing is in the open world, and the horde players are there to defend their side.

The longer you gather resources, the more powerful your support gets, and getting the base becomes progressively easier, until it becomes trivial within a couple of weeks. Once you are able to raid the enemy city and kill their leader, the fort becomes yours, and the horde is kicked down to Bashal’aran and must go through the same process you just did.

Holding the fortress grants you access to a special little raid or world boss, special crafting stations useful to professions, extra spicy PvP vendors, and things like that.

We’ve now told the story of Darkshore without a single instance, scenario, lorelol, phasing, group finding tool, adjustable difficulty level, or anything else like that, but we’ve told the entire story.

  1. The Battle for Dazar’alor

The war campaign can deal well with explaining this story, and particularly the aftermath. A part of the city can be destroyed, we can find and honour Rastakhan’s grave and see the alliance leaders get hurt by talking to the SI:7 or the Kor’kron, who stand by and watches helpless at what is unfolding.

We can have quests about driving the alliance out of certain parts of the city, and that can be an invasion. We can generally explore the aftermath without wrecking the city core (which is the horde capital, after all) but wrecking areas around it.

Rastakhan is a world boss, which the alliance are given quests to defeat. You can either kill him in the open world by just raiding the city, or you can be sent as part of a smaller elite strike force to take him out. Either way, he dies. He is featured in the raid as well, but a deal with Bwonsamdi, which was made outside the raid as you know, prevents his death. If you have killed him in the raid, he will appear undead and crazed to you when you engage him in the game world, and otherwise he will appear living, but will do the same thing, similar to Grong.

The story will have small inconsistencies depending on how you choose to play the game, but ultimately the end of the story is the same. You get agency, the story resolves itself either way, you don’t need the raid to understand what’s happening, and we’re not telling major plot points in the middle of a raid instance with people talking over it.

The raid itself will still feature bosses like the first 5 bosses in BfD plus the Stormwall Blockade. Jaina is fine too - she escapes. Nothing really happens besides the fact that some people fight Jaina. That’s fine. She can explain what happened to the alliance in their war campaign. Mekkatorque is a bit harder to explain out, primarily because what actually happens in the raid doesn’t even really make sense. Either way, we clearly get to have our cake and eat it too.

That didn’t make any sense to me either. We’ve just had the World First race which is covered by all the major wow news sites. It’s been the talk of trade, general, guild and even instance chat.

People who have large followings tend not to stream LFR either. Content creators don’t tend to focus on LFR and mostly the discussions on the forums are about pug difficulties and struggling to get in.

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I’m not ‘so concerned’ with it. I didn’t make a thread stating it’s too easy.
I think it’s fine as it is. Don’t view my statement as a concern towards LFR, but rather view it as a concern towards people who want it removed; they’re not going to have it their way. Better to spend their time and energy on something that might actually have some meaning.

And of course I want the game to be better. Don’t we all?

Well, then don’t make such silly claims like asking for its removal.
And as for ‘compelling’, well, like as been said before; then the system obviously isn’t meant for you. I don’t find arena compelling nor understand what anyone likes about it. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t serve a purpose for a certain audience. Same with LFR.

That is NOT a problem for the people LFR is MEANT FOR. It’s a problem for YOU. And YOU are not part of its target audience.

Are you under the impression that gearing up is ALL WoW is about? Because that is a very narrowminded and wrong impression.

And THAT, imo, eludes to one of the problems WoW has atm: Engaging in an open world. The open world content has to be more engaging, more fun, more fulfulling, more worth it. That’s not a LFR problem whatsoever.
Again, YOU might feel like you’ve ‘beaten the game’ when you did a raid, but that’s not how I feel and I’m pretty sure I’m not alone in that regard.

Agreed. So, what do you think would happen if they removed LFR?
At the start of an expansion people like me would level up, we would do the world content, run the dungeons to see that content, finish any storylines we could and then? We would reach the insurmountable blockade of ‘the raid’.
We’d be done. In fact, I can guarantee you that I’d quit even faster than I did now.

That’s totally not the reason why LFR is timegated. I’m sorry, but you don’t know what you’re talking about.

What is this nonsense?! I mean, seriously man.
JUST DON’T GO IN THERE. There. You have your discovery and progression.
YOU. ARE. NOT. LFR’S. TARGET. AUDIENCE.
So don’t do it. Simple. So very very simple.

You’ve been told reasons many times already and you just keep dismissing it. The reasons given might not be good reasons for YOU, but that doesn’t matter. They are good reasons for the people that LFR is meant for.

Encouraging them to do everything else? What does that even mean?
Me not having LFR does not encourage me to do raids. I turns me away from the game because content is being taken away from me. Understand that. People will not magically start raiding because you take THEIR option of raiding away. They won’t.

I don’t HAVE to fix it because I don’t think its broken. It’s YOU, a person who shouldn’t be doing LFR who think the system he shouldn’t be doing is broken. THAT is YOUR problem. Not ours.

I’m not asking for suggestions to change Arena so that I will like it. You know how crazy that would be? Me, a non-pvper, asking for arena to be changed to suit MY needs. THAT is basically what you are doing. Please understand that.

Well, in my opinion it SHOULDN’T. But apparently Blizzard thinks otherwise. If it were up to me raids wouldn’t have storylines in them, so they’d be totally optional for people who like that sort of content. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be somehow connected to the story of course.

But finishing up big story moments with big fights against the atagonists of the expansion and such, well yeah, that pretty much fits raids like a glove. So it’s logical Blizzard went that way.

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