Raidfinder too easy!

[Shumensko-azjolnerub (Shumensko)]

People who have large followings tend not to stream LFR either.

This is a mistake imo. Some LFR runs could be a lot more entertaining than mythic.

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

This is a mistake imo. Some LFR runs could be a lot more entertaining than mythic.

Maybe. But LFR is so much more accessible. So it’s not something most people will want to see, because they’ve seen and experienced it themselves. Mythic raids are much much much less accessible, so the alure of seeing those is just bigger (not for me personally mind you; I don’t like watching other people play video games; I don’t see the entertainment in that ).

[Punyelf-draenor (Punyelf)]

Unless they include the queue it would be fairly quick xD

[Dorethien-darkmoon-faire (Dorethien)]

With that ilvl, not so strange?
But raid finder I like to think more of as those who just want to experience the story but aren’t much for hardcore raiding or gearing, nothing wrong with that.
LFR is also the easiest difficulty of raiding, so I dunno why even questioning it.

[Tèsla-silvermoon (Tèsla)]

I think this is because the “prestige” of someone streaming a LFR could be lowered at the eyes of ppl considering LFR just like p@@ as our friend here.
It’s sad but this is it.

[Ishayu-frostmane (Ishayu)]

I’m not ‘so concerned’ with it. I didn’t make a thread stating it’s too easy.

No, instead you made a reply stating that you don’t want it removed, but improved, because you seem to be more concerned with improving LFR rather than improving WoW. I’m not saying you’re not concerned with improving WoW, but improving LFR seems to be more important to you.

Well, then don’t make such silly claims like asking for its removal.

So if my opinion of it is that it makes WoW worse at reaching the goals of WoW’s design, then I should not ask for its removal? That doesn’t make sense.

And I’m not talking about compelling for me personally. I’m talking generally compelling.

That is NOT a problem for the people LFR is MEANT FOR. It’s a problem for YOU. And YOU are not part of its target audience.

I’m well aware that I’m not. The goal of it seems to be to get players who don’t want to play an MMORPG at all and just wanna skip it all. I struggle to see the advantage of that, but like you said it’s not a problem in and of itself.

The real concern is that it undermines the feeling of advancement and progression for those who do not want to skip it all and do want to play the MMORPG - and it absolutely does.

Designing the game for people who don’t want to play it at the expense of people who do seems like a really poor design choice.

Are you under the impression that gearing up is ALL WoW is about? Because that is a very narrowminded and wrong impression.

No, and I frankly find it frustratingly ridiculous that you can think I think that after what I’ve posted.

WoW is about exploring Azeroth either solo or with friends. Gear and experience and their rates of acquisition and their power is what sets the pace of this journey. Therefore, they are critical for how the game works, however they are not the end-goal in and of themselves.

Therefore, anything that makes gear unnecessary for seeing the content, or grants you gear too quickly, or too slowly, or spreads people across too many tiers of content, etc., will have a negative impact on the game.

LFR does the former, by unlocking all content without having to go through the game’s paces. You get skipped to the end too fast.

The only way to miss that point is to fail to understand exactly what you just accused me of failing to understand, which is terribly ironic.

And THAT, imo, eludes to one of the problems WoW has atm: Engaging in an open world. The open world content has to be more engaging, more fun, more fulfulling, more worth it. That’s not a LFR problem whatsoever.
Again, YOU might feel like you’ve ‘beaten the game’ when you did a raid, but that’s not how I feel and I’m pretty sure I’m not alone in that regard.

Agreed, that is a separate issue, although what I would argue is that LFR is being made as a stand-in for the lack of compelling open world and solo content, and that it’s not the right solution to the problem.

So, what do you think would happen if they removed LFR?

People would play longer because it’d take longer to see the last piece of content.

For evidence, see Blizzard’s own financial reporting.

That’s totally not the reason why LFR is timegated. I’m sorry, but you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Oh? Why is it timegated then.

What is this nonsense?! I mean, seriously man.
JUST DON’T GO IN THERE. There. You have your discovery and progression.
YOU. ARE. NOT. LFR’S. TARGET. AUDIENCE.
So don’t do it. Simple. So very very simple.

I. KNOW. I. AM. NOT. I. AM. ARGUING. THE. TARGET. AUDIENCE. DOES. NOT. EXIST. AT. ALL.

There are certainly people who think they are the target audience, but they’re not.

The target audience we’ve found so far is apparently people who want to skip the entire game and run the game’s final group activity without a group, and therefore end up skipping 87% of the game’s sub time while complaining about timegating. Even LFR players don’t want LFR.

Encouraging them to do everything else? What does that even mean?

It means making other stuff in the game that’s compelling and fun for them, like you suggested earlier as well.

Well, in my opinion it SHOULDN’T. But apparently Blizzard thinks otherwise. If it were up to me raids wouldn’t have storylines in them, so they’d be totally optional for people who like that sort of content. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be somehow connected to the story of course.

Great! Glad we agree on that. No need for LFR then.

Now we just have to convince Blizzard that that is the real solution instead of telling them to do some ridiculous garbage to justify some other ridiculous garbage. 'Kay?

[Tahen-pozzo-delleternità]

Why does LFR have to be the one to suffer? If anything were to go it would need to be one of the PuG formats.

LFR It’s supposed to be the entry level in the raid world but is so dull and easy that is basically like doing a world quest. People learn nothing from it and this is way pugging even in normal is terrible until late when everybody is overgeared.
Also, it does not encourage any communication or interaction, not even for a summon. Not the best for what is supposed to be the best pve content of mmo.
If any difficulty has to go, should be LFR.

[Radium-dragonblight]

LFR It’s supposed to be the entry level in the raid world but is so dull and easy that is basically like doing a world quest.

Entry level would mean that it has been made as entry to go further on raiding. This is not what it was made for or is ment to (alltough for some it might work that way too). As been stated by blues in several occasions over the years, even once in this thread, it is :

for people that wish to experience the raid, in an easier mode. Reasons for that can be multiple (time constraints, lack of experience, scheduling issues etc). It can also be seen as a tool for gearing up a bit various alts that you may have recently levelled to max.

If you wish to experience more challenging content, you should be looking at the other raid difficulties!

LFR is not learning centre for harder modes, it is its own entity. I don’t promote removing any content from the game but if i would be forced to remove either LFR or one of the normal raiding modes, i would remove one of the difficulties from normal raiding. That would leave activity for LFR people and also for organized raiders. Two totally different focus groups.

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

you seem to be more concerned with improving LFR rather than improving WoW. I’m not saying you’re not concerned with improving WoW, but improving LFR seems to be more important to you.

Just more nonsense.

So if my opinion of it is that it makes WoW worse at reaching the goals of WoW’s design, then I should not ask for its removal?

Yeah, you shouldn’t. Because your OPINION is not some universal truth.
Your opinion does not warrant, in any way, taking away content from a large group of players.

And I’m not talking about compelling for me personally. I’m talking generally compelling.

That’s the same tbh because you appear to be unable to look at this objectively. All your opinions and thoughts are influenced by how you feel about this specific piece of content. So yeah, YOU can’t see how it can be compelling. Doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

The goal of it seems to be to get players who don’t want to play an MMORPG at all and just wanna skip it all.

Stop being so biased and insulting towards people who play the game in a different way than you do. They DO want to play the game, just differently. That’s not better or worse, just different. Respect that.

The real concern is that it undermines the feeling of advancement and progression for those who do not want to skip it all and do want to play the MMORPG - and it absolutely does.

How does it do that? Just don’t set foot in it. Ignore it.
Then it doesn’t influence anything at all.

Designing the game for people who don’t want to play it at the expense of people who do seems like a really poor design choice.

STOP SAYING LFR PLAYERS DON’T WANT TO PLAY THE GAME.
Stop being so damned narrowminded man.

No, and I frankly find it frustratingly ridiculous that you can think I think that after what I’ve posted.

Oh so you saying:

There is no reason to bother with doing dungeons or doing tradeskills and buying items or doing world quests or anything else like that if you can just ding, do warfronts for 4 hours, do LFR for 3 hours, and then you’ve done it.

That means exactly that. So yes, I do think that. If that’s not what you meant, then pick your words more carefully next time.

LFR does the former, by unlocking all content without having to go through the game’s paces. You get skipped to the end too fast.

This is just such nonsense. The people who do LFR go through the same process, just at a lower difficulty. Why do you keep spouting this complete and utter nonsense?!

what I would argue is that LFR is being made as a stand-in for the lack of compelling open world and solo content

More complete nonsense. LFR is a stand-in for RAID content. That is what it is. Nothing more, nothing less. If you think raiding as a whole is a stand-in for compelling open world content and solo conten, well I disagree. The lack of compelling open world content is a seperate issue.

People would play longer because it’d take longer to see the last piece of content.

People. Would. Quit.
THEY WOULDN’T BE ABLE TO SEE THE LAST PIECE OF CONTENT. AT ALL.
Understand that. This is so frustrating that you don’t see this. People will NOT start raiding. They will come to this barrier and QUIT.

Oh? Why is it timegated then.

To make sure the other difficulties can be completed before LFR. Because they do want to give the ‘real’ raiders a chance to be the first to see this content.

I. AM. ARGUING. THE. TARGET. AUDIENCE. DOES. NOT. EXIST. AT. ALL.

Your nonsense just doesn’t end, does it?
Do I not exist? I and millions of other players do not exist?

The target audience we’ve found so far is apparently people who want to skip the entire game

NONONONONONONONOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
Stop insulting an entire group of players who like different content than you.

Great! Glad we agree on that. No need for LFR then.

There IS a need because Blizzard WON’T remove storylines from raids.

Now we just have to convince Blizzard that that is the real solution instead of telling them to do some ridiculous garbage to justify some other ridiculous garbage. 'Kay?

You’re free to try. I don’t have to convince them because I don’t mind doing LFR. It lets me see and experience new content that I otherwise wouldn’t see. It allows me to see and experience the storylines in there and it allows me to farm transmogs of raid gear that I otherwise wouldn’t be able to get for a loooong time.

So no. I’m not going to ask them anything of the sort. You are alone in this.
Stop being so narrowminded. People LIKE LFR. Accept that. You don’t have to understand or even agree with it, but you can’t decide for them what they think/feel/want. You can’t enforce your closeminded views on others. Thankfully.

[Lanie-argent-dawn]

There are certainly people who think they are the target audience, but they’re not.

There are certainly people who think they know what they’re talking about, but they do not.

The biggest question so far in this thread, for me, is who the hell do you think you are? The arrogance is absolutely astounding, I’ll give you that.

I’m not quite sure what I’d suggest you build a bridge over, your river of tears or yourself, because you seriously need to get over both.

[Tèsla-silvermoon (Tèsla)]

People would play longer because it’d take longer to see the last piece of content.

No. Ppl wouldnt raid at all. This is the problem. You believe that ppl doin LFR lacks the focus or is just lazy. No ppl sometimes have lack of TIME for IRL stuff. Time!
When i was young i had the time to wait for ppl forming a raid. Now im not. I dont have 2 hours in a row to wait for the formation of pug. With LFR i can see content in 1\2 hour.
try to think in a different way.
And last but not the least: in-game and IRL the solution about things you (in general not you you) dont understand\agree\know is to erase them.
I still cant understand this mood of thinkin.

[Ishayu-frostmane (Ishayu)]

Yeah, you shouldn’t. Because your OPINION is not some universal truth.
Your opinion does not warrant, in any way, taking away content from a large group of players.

That’s the same tbh because you appear to be unable to look at this objectively. All your opinions and thoughts are influenced by how you feel about this specific piece of content. So yeah, YOU can’t see how it can be compelling. Doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

I think you’ve confused objectivity with having everyone’s perspective in mind - a kind of omni-subjectivism.

I am making an argument that I, and I know many millions of others are with me on this and no, you can’t handwave that away, LFR makes the game worse. I have evidence of this, and it has been presented in this thread, but you don’t wanna hear it. You just stick your fingers in your ears and pretend nobody’s saying it.

Try going into the classic forum literally next door and suggest LFR be added or removed. After they’re done screaming no changes, you’ll get an endless barrage of rational reasons why LFR hurts the game, but you don’t want to hear that either, and yet you think you’re being objective in calling it good just because you’re imagining this huge playerbase of people who wouldn’t enjoy the game at all if it wasn’t for LFR.

We’ve already established that LFR is only compelling for the story. I suggest moving the story out like it used to be, because storytelling in a 20-man co-op setting where people want you to skip cinematics doesn’t work well anyway. Then you suggest it’s to see the last boss of the raiding activities - but if you don’t want to raid, why should you get to do that? If you don’t want to raid, why should you kill all the raiding bosses? I argue that there are other activities that could be reinforced to give people who don’t want to raid the option of progressing in their own way, with its own ultimate challenges, instead of being forced into raiding.

I am arguing for the end of “RAID OR DIE”, and you vehemently argue against me based on the wishes of people who don’t want to raid.

I really, really don’t understand why you’re doing that. Calling me biased, subjevtive, and insulting doesn’t change my mind. Argue to me why we need to put people who don’t want to raid into a really bad raiding experience without relying on the arguments I’ve already countered. Come on, do it!

Stop being so biased and insulting towards people who play the game in a different way than you do. They DO want to play the game, just differently. That’s not better or worse, just different. Respect that.

I am not insulting people who play the game differently than I do. At no point have I said LFR players are bad people, heck I haven’t even said they’re bad players (although I have said it’s nearly impossible to team-work with 19 random strangers), and at no point have I said they don’t deserve to have fun. On the contrary, I want them to have more fun, and that involves removing LFR and making something better

How does it do that? Just don’t set foot in it. Ignore it.
Then it doesn’t influence anything at all.

This is an impossibly stupid statement. You seriously mean to tell me that a game system in a massively multiplayer game doesn’t affect you just because you don’t choose to use it?

Why don’t you continue this line of reasoning and start arguing that having creative mode enabled on a Minecraft server has no impact on people playing without the creative mode superpowers…

STOP SAYING LFR PLAYERS DON’T WANT TO PLAY THE GAME.
Stop being so damned narrowminded man.

STOP SAYING I’VE SAID THAT.

I’ve said LFR players don’t want to raid. That’s VERY different from them not wanting to play the game.

That means exactly that. So yes, I do think that. If that’s not what you meant, then pick your words more carefully next time.

No it doesn’t. What in the actual **** man. If getting the best gear was the end-goal, you wouldn’t be done until you had a full titanforged socketed set with tertiary stats. If getting to see all the story is the end-goal, which it is for most, and all the story is in the raid, then killing the last boss of the raid means you’re done, and that can be done very quickly in LFR.

The distinction is really not that complicated if you chew on it for a few seconds, but you just can’t think of the game in any other terms than gear, and you’re blaming me for it.

This is just such nonsense. The people who do LFR go through the same process, just at a lower difficulty. Why do you keep spouting this complete and utter nonsense?!

Well if it’s at a lower difficulty it ain’t the same process, now is it?!

People. Would. Quit.

Just. like. in. 2004-2010. right?

Rofl.

The biggest question so far in this thread, for me, is who the hell do you think you are? The arrogance is absolutely astounding, I’ll give you that.

A player who wants to play the WoW I bought and invested time in, not the abomination it has become.

No. Ppl wouldnt raid at all. This is the problem.

If people hate raiding so much they don’t even want to build groups, then them not raiding is obviously not a problem.

[Tèsla-silvermoon (Tèsla)]

If people hate raiding so much they don’t even want to build groups, then them not raiding is obviously not a problem.

No ppl hates to waste 2h to form a pug that disband after 3 wipes. When the same ppl has just 2h that day for a miracle this could be annoyin.

I have understood this issue just when i moved to live with my GF .

[Ishayu-frostmane (Ishayu)]

No ppl hates to waste 2h to form a pug that disband after 3 wipes. When the same ppl has just 2h that day for a miracle this could be annoyin.

I have understood this issue just when i moved to live with my GF .

Don’t use your girlfriend as a scapegoat for this. That’s disgusting.

If you don’t want to spend 2 hours forming a group that disbands after 3 wipes, then stop building those kinds of groups. Make connections and use them instead of starting an entire recruitment and vetting process up from scratch every time, i.e. make a friends list.

[Tèsla-silvermoon (Tèsla)]

I wrote a long statement about your last post but i think is better to let the word to the Captain in Cold Hand Luke:

“what we’ve got here is… failure to communicate… Some men, you just can’t reach”.

Or you are just a troll.

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

I am making an argument that I, and I know many millions of others are with me on this and no, you can’t handwave that away, LFR makes the game worse.

Many millions is a number you can’t back up. But even if it is; the number of people who benefit from LFR greatly outnumbers the number of those it ‘impacts negatively’ and I say this in parantheses because it shouldn’t impact you. You can just ignore it (like I do with arena).

Try going into the classic forum literally next door and suggest LFR be added or removed.

What kind of lame argument is that? Of course they won’t like it, because those people want an experience as close to the original release as possible. That doesn’t prove anything.

just because you’re imagining this huge playerbase of people who wouldn’t enjoy the game at all if it wasn’t for LFR.

I think the imagining is the other way around. I really do.

We’ve already established that LFR is only compelling for the story.

No. YOU have established that, in your mind. You don’t make up the rules. You don’t get to decide for other people. You need to get off your high horse.

but if you don’t want to raid, why should you get to do that?

Because that IS part of the story. Duh. It’s part of the setting of the expansion. Why should I be locked out from that content? Because YOU think I should be? No. Just no.

I argue that there are other activities that could be reinforced to give people who don’t want to raid the option of progressing in their own way, with its own ultimate challenges, instead of being forced into raiding.

Well no matter how good that idea sounds, it’s not going to happen I’m afraid. Blizzard isn’t going to make 2 totally seperate paths to the endgoal. That’s just not a cost effective way of using their resources. So LFR is the next best thing.

I really, really don’t understand why you’re doing that.

Because it’s not realistic. It’s not going to happen.
If it were, then raiding would seize to exist. Do you want THAT to happen?
I don’t. Even though its far from my favorite type of content.

On the contrary, I want them to have more fun, and that involves removing LFR and making something better

You don’t get to decide their fun for them. Ever.
Just stick to what YOU like and let other people enjoy the game the way they like it.

You seriously mean to tell me that a game system in a massively multiplayer game doesn’t affect you just because you don’t choose to use it?

Yes. I dont care about arena, I don’t care about battlegrounds, I don’t care about normal, heroic or mythic raiding. All these systems have no impact on me because I choose to ignore them. Because that is a totally viable option. And it is for you too!

Why don’t you continue this line of reasoning and start arguing that having creative mode enabled on a Minecraft server has no impact on people playing without the creative mode superpowers…

I’m not going to discuss a game I’ve never played and have no interest in ever playing.

STOP SAYING I’VE SAID THAT.

…

The target audience we’ve found so far is apparently people who want to skip the entire game

The goal of it seems to be to get players who don’t want to play an MMORPG at all

And that is only from that post. You’ve said similar things many, many times before.

If getting to see all the story is the end-goal, which it is for most, and all the story is in the raid, then killing the last boss of the raid means you’re done, and that can be done very quickly in LFR.

1. this argument is based on many assumptions you make
2. No, it can’t be done very quickly in LFR, because it takes over a month for all the wings to be released. People will be done with normal and usually heroic too WAY before you finish LFR. Your argument is moot.

Well if it’s at a lower difficulty it ain’t the same process, now is it?!

Yeah it is. You do quests, dungeons whatever, get gear, do the storylines then you do the raid (at WHATEVER DIFFICULTY). Same. Process.

Just. like. in. 2004-2010. right?

– BIGGEST FACEPALM EVER –

A player who wants to play the WoW I bought and invested time in

Wait for classic then. That’s your best option.
If the game was the same now as it was 14 years ago, it truly would be dead or on life support. An mmorpg needs to constantly evolve with new content and fresh systems to keep it interesting.

If people hate raiding so much they don’t even want to build groups, then them not raiding is obviously not a problem.

Your arrogance knows no bounds.

[Rhaeve-magtheridon (Rhaeve)]

Wow, just wow at all those comments. I can’t say i like LFR, but since i can’t raid anymore, due to healthissues it’s the only possibility for me to get back a little of what i lost. I loved raiding, but sadly, this is the only other option for me.

I really can’t understand, why some of you make such a big fuss over something like this. It harms no one, not in any way, shape or form.

[Punyelf-draenor (Punyelf)]

LFR It’s supposed to be the entry level in the raid world but is so dull and easy that is basically like doing a world quest. People learn nothing from it and this is way pugging even in normal is terrible until late when everybody is overgeared.
Also, it does not encourage any communication or interaction, not even for a summon. Not the best for what is supposed to be the best pve content of mmo.
If any difficulty has to go, should be LFR.

This is where there is a great misconception by people who do higher difficulties. It is not it’s intention to teach people anything. It’s to give non raiders access to see the raids/final storylines.

I really don’t see why people are so upset about an easy access, dumbed down mode that many do. It is of no consequence to anyone that does Nm/Hc/Myth that some players get to see and do easy mode raids in nice bite size wings.

LFR absolutely should never be the one to go. It’s the one that no one is barred from doing.

[Celadina-doomhammer]

People would play longer because it’d take longer to see the last piece of content.

Shot yourself in there foot mate .

Fact LFR doesnt fully open until 2 months after raid comes out in which case its already been beating on mythic/heroic/normal so makes your point moot .It already makes LFR players play longer in the first place .

[Lanie-argent-dawn]

A player who wants to play the WoW I bought and invested time in, not the abomination it has become.

Funny, I could have sworn it was a selfish player who wanted everything their own way.