Putting aside the simple fact that Garithos’ betrayal of the Blood Elves is the catalyst that pushed them towards the Horde rather than the Alliance and happened fairly ‘recently’, the torture and murder of civilians is never acceptable and should always be treated with disdain by the narrative. Whether it’s the Horde, the Alliance or a neutral organisation who is responsible.
I don’t think we’re going to see eye to eye on the matter, though, since your opinions shift with the wind and you have a consistent track of framing the Alliance as always being correct and the Horde as never having any real ground to stand upon. Even when the Alliance or Kirin Tor is trying to execute a bunch of innocents…not once, but twice.
This, too, extends to your - shall we say, ‘colourful’ - opinions on real world atrocities as well, as seen in another thread the other day:
Given that you completely remove any nuance from real world atrocities involving the deliberate mass death of innocent men, women and children most of whom were civilians I think it’s safe to state that your acknowledgement of any ‘nuance’ on the subject of either Garithos or Vereesa is simply not being presented in good faith.
Oh I am not disputing that, I am just disputing you making it that black and white (or calling Garithos a part of the Alliance).
Yes the Alliance mistreated and wronged the blood elves, but acting like that would be a reason for the nightborne to join the blood elves over the night and high elves, who were also mistreated by the Horde, and also more recently than Garithos is such what argument?
Or outright ignoring that the night and high elves also had to struggle with magic addiction or a beloved leader that joined the Legion.
Or that both the night and high elves had horrible atrocities, torture and murder visited upon them by the Horde.
So the nightborne joining the Horde makes them perfectly fine to work alongside a faction that attempted to murder a specific group of elves twice.
In case you were wondering:
The blood elves exiled the high elves, a group were exiled into the Plaguelands were they came under frequent Horde (Forsaken attack).
The Highvale elves were exiles too, they came under frequent Horde (Forsaken) attack.
The Horde invaded Ashenvale and killed night elves for resources, they attempted to remove the entire night elf population (Cata, BfA).
The blood elves tried to mana bomb Allerian Stronghold, the high elf fort in Outlands (TBC).
A Sunreaver blood elf created the mana bomb that destroyed Theramore, the home of one of the largest groups of high elves (Cata).
You talk of nuance, but you’d rather see hundreds of thousanda of extra Americans, Britons, Canadians, Australians, New sealanders, Chinese, Russians and Japanese death to maintain your moral high ground.
Arm chair warrior that knows better 100 years after the fact.
Lets ask the victims of Nanking, or those enslaved by the japanese, what they think of your nuance and moral high ground.
Many historians use the casualty estimate that was briefed to Truman in June 1945 to claim that the projected low casualty rate of 25,000 dead did not justify the use of the atomic bomb. However, those casualty estimates were based on an April 1945 estimate of Japanese force strength of around 229,000. By July 1945, that force had almost tripled to 657,000. With this sizable ground force supported by the special attack forces, it is easy to reach a total casualty figure of close to 500,000 Americans. This is the same number used by Truman in later accounts in his diary to justify the use of the atomic bomb. In addition to U.S. casualties, the Japanese on Kyushu would likely have suffered upwards of 2,000,000 military and civilian casualties. These projected figures for Kyushu far exceed the casualties inflicted by the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which ended the War with Japan.
Indeed. The pretty simplistic stories of WoW should never be compared to the RL horrors of war itself, it’s a silly and naïve way to debate an argument and quite frankly an insult to those who died and suffered in those wars.
Because Thalstarion decided he’s going to try to paint Shadowtwili as some bad faith actor to “win” an online argument by bringing up another lore discussion where someone else entirely brought up IRL events.
Frankly, the guy reminds me of those famous nelfposters who are so blinded by their love for one of myriad playable races in WoW that they become completely blinded to the reality of the story and setting. It will be interesting having him here during Midnight.
Re. Garithos. Garithos was a plot point to push the blood elves towards Illidan and his hijinks. The Alliance they were a member of was the walking dead, literally. While Dalaran’s failures linger with some characters.
Saying he is what caused them to join the Horde is a bit false imo; when he’s mentioned twice in wow, once by Rommath while spitting venom about Dalaran. And again in the dungeon journal of Telestra (a high elf) who defected to the blue dragonflight over it.
The blood elves sided with the Horde because the Forsaken offered help (a poison chalice really) while the Alliance sabotaged an Arcane Sanctum and hindered a campaign to kill Drathir who was planning an invasion of Silvermoon (arguably because their interaction with the blood elves was literally Matis).
Garithos is overstated. He was a plot tool and a wet fart of a character.
Edit: didn’t mean to reply to you there Syelia, my bad.
People hate contradictory characters who are walking retcons until its time to talk about Garithos weirdly - who is the literal first walking contradictory retcon of a character in Warcraft’s history.
Garithos’s double standards and “its their fault my home burned down!!!” Isn’t an issue really. But he shouldn’t be built up like he’s a main contributing figure to something larger than he is. When really he’s the dropped cigarette on the ground that someone else doused in petrol and ignited with a blowtorch a few years later.
I agree, while I think Garithos and his contribution shouldn’t be ignored, at the end of the day he was one warlord. Orcish warlord also (highly likely, if we go by how NPCs appear during quests in Stonetalon) exterminated a tauren tribe and that doesn’t mean tauren should hate the Horde because of that.
Vereesa’s the one to blame. She’s the one who convinced the Kirin Tor to assist in Kael’s imprisonment and to step aside when Garithos ordered the execution. With Alleria gone and Sylvanas ‘dead’, she planned to take the throne of Silvermoon for herself…
Uh, which tribe? I can’t find any that match this description.
Garithos was very much a part of the Alliance and had both remnants of Lordaeron and the Kirin Tor following his lead. There isn’t much nuance to the character, given that he was an outright racist and was very willing to try and execute the monarch of a formerly allied nation shortly after that very same nation had almost been completely wiped off of the map.
If not for that, the Blood Elves might very well have taken a completely different trajectory but their hands were tied and what the Alliance did to them on two separate occasions is very much a case of a horrific act.
I didn’t say it was the only reason, I proposed that it was very likely a question that was asked and answered. I also highlighted how similar the Nightborne and Sin’dorei are to one another in the process.
Garrosh and Sylvanas going off of the rails is a different matter altogether. It was never any secret that the Blood Elves were in the Horde as a matter of necessity in a tentative pact of mutual benefit. In fact, they were in talks to step away from the Horde during Mists of Pandaria until the Purge of Dalaran and the second attempt by elements of the Alliance and the Kirin Tor to try and wipe out Blood Elves, including innocent civilians.
Which? Queen Azshara? That was many thousands of years ago. You’re not being consistent. You claimed earlier that Garithos is supposedly too far in the past despite his antics only taking place roughly two decades ago but now you’re pointing to events prior to the Sundering.
Yes - and as I have stated many, many times to you in the past I am not fond of the Horde or the Alliance. I’m simply opposing the troubling trend of Alliance enthusiasts proclaiming that there is never any justification for anything the races tied to the Horde do. As well as a refusal to acknowledge that it is precisely due to atrocities such as Garithos and the Purge of the Dalaran that the faction war escalated and bitter grudges deepened.
Which, again, can be said of the Alliance - twice, too!
The exile was needed for the sake of stability during a period of immense unrest and societal changes, with the threat of the Scourge looming on the very doorstep of Silvermoon as well as Alliance saboteurs entering Quel’Thalas and seeking not to negotiate but cause further strife.
Which is also something I have spoken out against repeatedly, including within this very thread as seen here:
Kael’thas’ forces were responsible for that, not the Blood Elves who happened to be aligned with the Horde.
Thalen, yes, who was very much aligned with Garrosh even above his own people and whilst the mana bomb was certainly horrific, it still doesn’t justify hunting down unrelated civilians to torture and murder them for the ‘crime’ of simply also being Blood Elves.
There’s rules of engagement for a reason and I will never justify the mass murder of large swathes of civilians. To say nothing of the fact that history is not only written by the victors but often curated to push certain viewpoints above all else.
Where did I claim to ‘know better’? I simply observed it was a horrific action and there is no justification for the mass murder of civilian targets.
I must confess, I’m not hugely interested in manipulative appeals to emotion. Many horrific actions have taken place throughout history, the answer is never ‘let’s wipe out entire cities’ as far as I am concerned.
I brought it up because every single thread touching on the faction war devolves into the same handful of posters proclaiming loudly that their faction is always justified and never in the wrong. I am also tired of the lack of consistency with the stances taken.
I see it frequently - someone declares that there’s never justification for X, Y or Z. Then a character or faction that they like engages in X, Y or Z and suddenly there’s ‘nuance’.
I’ll readily admit that bringing real world atrocities into the conversation isn’t great - but I didn’t quote those posts with the intention of ‘winning’ an argument. There’s nothing to win.
I’ve made it crystal clear that I despise both factions and consider the faction conflict to be a poorly written mess. Nonetheless, it is tiresome to me that every atrocity the Horde commits is - rightly - criticised but the Alliance and Kirin Tor variants are downplayed and excused.
Of lesser relevance is the fact that I have unfortunate first hand experience with extremist elements on this server who stalked and harassed various Blood Elf enthusiasts for the ‘crime’ of criticising Vereesa and Jaina in the aftermath of the Purge of Dalaran.
It has always been a fairly heated and touchy issue on this server.
It’s not the only reason but it did play a part in toppling the various dominoes that led to their decision. Sen’jin was barely present in Warcraft 3 and had even less screen-time than Garithos did yet his actions still played a huge part in shaping the trajectory of his people.
At any rate, my main point was simply that the Nightborne and Blood Elves have a lot in common as their respective stories share a lot of similarities. I made a passing comment about how they likely talked about what they had experienced as justification for warming up to the idea of forging stronger ties and…well, I have no idea why the thread took the turn that it did but at least I can hazard a guess as why this thread is intended as ‘containment’.
I’m aware. The vast majority of High Elves turned their backs upon their homeland and people, however - either in favour of neutrality or by firmly embedding themselves into the Alliance.
I’m an Elven enthusiast at heart and the various off-shoots of Elves suffer immensely from the two faction model which has in turn led to some very dubious insinuations and implications that the narrative refuses to address.
I do not expect Midnight to necessarily change that - if anything, it’ll probably sidestep all the spicier stuff in favour of handwaving everything that happened on either side just like it did with the conflict between the Gilneans and the Forsaken.
I’ve said it before but it’s worth repeating - the Purge of Dalaran should have resulted in the Horde taking out Vereesa and the Alliance taking out either Thalen or Aethas. Both sides would then get some semblance of payback in the process and it also wouldn’t be as heated a topic as it is to this day.
Cliffwalker Tribe (which is unnamed, not an uncommon thing, such as with Stonespire Tribe, but has a chieftan and a settlement). After High Chieftain’s son gets killed by orcs, the tauren kill the general responsible and in turn the orcs burn down their village, with only the High Chieftain being seen alive after that.
Googling it, apparently they appear in Traveller, but I have no idea how that book went with canon, it wouldn’t be the first time Blizzard ressurected dead people.
“Garithos represented the Alliance!”
The Alliance of Lordaeron, or what was left of it.
But, ok, sure, by that logic I guess we gotta deal with every single Forsaken, because of Putress and Wrathgate. Which was against BOTH factions.
‘War crimes’ are slung around by Blizz to drive narrarive necessity for plot points. It, sadly, lacks any more depth than that. At least at the time of writing, patch-job retcons notwithstanding.
Edit: before anyone misconstrues - I am not on ‘team Alliance’.
I am on ‘Team Dear God Write a Proper Lorebible’, and I’m ready for the F4A melee, beesh.
(until TBC happened anyways)