Reserving items

[Rickermann-hydraxian-waterlords]

You have no basic rights to loot in groups you do not start with or lead yourself. Make your own, or go with what the leader says.

[Bertilius-skullflame]

So if you are group leader the group is working for you ? …
Ill just let that one simmer for a while …

[Resist-earthshaker]

@Batushka-ashbringer

If someone reserve some item for himself in a situation, when the other players too need it, then he violates basic right of other players for fair roll.

No, because the loot rules are explained in advanced, yet people still joined. Don’t like them - don’t join the group.

@Batushka-ashbringer

When someone violates basic rights of equal persons, which actually players are, he make immoral action.

Except no rules have been violated in the first place.

@Batushka-ashbringer

Then, if someone reserve some item for himself in a situation, when the other players too need it, then he make immoral action.

This is getting a bit embarrassing for you, isn’t it?

You are acting as you are forced to join a group with reserved items and then complain that didn’t get it.

[Purerogue-twisting-nether]

Well you must give some respect where it is due, it takes time to form group and effort to lead it.

[Bertilius-skullflame]

no … it really doesnt … sometimes takes time to find a tank, but 8/10 its not even the group leader that facilitates that … Forming a group is a group effort as well … dps is as important as heals and tanking … Ill give respect when its due - like when you show skills, compassion and integrity - not because you have a crown icon on your avatar …

[Purerogue-twisting-nether]

Well it takes time for someone to find the tank, tank just joins group, if you say it is so easy form your own group

[Bertilius-skullflame]

well i form groups all the time, but i dont consider them as mine - we are a team with a common goal … I dont really understand that line of thinking at all …
we might as well decide now and then that tanks and group leaders are better people than the rest of us, and we should just do your bidding … Gee, sounds like fun …

[Purerogue-twisting-nether]

Well then continue doing it and mind your own business, none forces you to join such groups.

[Bertilius-skullflame]

i am minding my own buisness, this is a forum after all and i have an opinion - but i guess thats also reserved for tanks and group leaders … im sorry for the insolence …

[Batushka-ashbringer]

@Resist-earthshaker

No, because the loot rules are explained in advanced, yet people still joined. Don’t like them - don’t join the group.

What you say is an objection from arrangement which I tried to answer at the original post. But I’ll try to explain why it didn’t get the point one more time.

First, when the you have no people in your party that need item you reserved, you are not actually reserved it, cause for reserving you need another person who at least potentially pretend on it.

Second, you are not explain why the reserving should take place at all, the answer “if you don’t want to be deprived of your item, don’t join the party” is no answer at all, cause if I didn’t join, i can’t be deprived. But you should explain why the deprivation will be moral one, not what should I do to prevent the deprivation.

Third, the mere fact of arrangement doesn’t make arrangement a good one. I can explain it this way: the morality of the arrangement does not necessarily follow from the concept of an arrangement. For evidence look at my example with a woman at the original post.

@Resist-earthshaker

Except no rules have been violated in the first place.

What rules do you mean? If game rules then it’s obviously false that morality of actions is limited to the rules of the game. All players are primarily people, and only then their characters.

[Miylee-darksorrow (Miylee)]

I also have a problem with people reserving items, but the simple solution is to not join those groups.

Make your own where items aren’t reserved.

[Ropman-golemagg]

There’s nothing wrong with reserving.

• it takes knowledge and effort to create a group and you should respect someone actually doing it. It’s is much more convenient to just whisp for invite.
• It takes longer to create a group with reserved items so there’s already some downside of reserving
• People who reserve are usually geared and seeking a specific item so they probably won’t need on anything else as opposed to a new player for whom everything is an upgrade
• Nobody is forcing you to join the group if you don’t agree with the rules

[Holyfrog-gehennas]

@Batushka-ashbringer

Third, the mere fact of arrangement doesn’t make arrangement a good one. I can explain it this way: the morality of the arrangement does not necessarily follow from the concept of an arrangement. For evidence look at my example with a woman at the original post.

The moral thing would be to not demand that you can roll on every item when you didnt make the group yourself.

See? There’s no objectively right or wrong answer when it comes to morality. Its always subjective.

Like has been explained in this thread multiple times, if you dont like the rules set by whomever organize the group then just dont join.

You seem awefully entitled. Nobody is obligated to provide you with groups that give equal terms to every party involved. It’s really that simple.

[Batushka-ashbringer]

@Holyfrog-gehennas

The moral thing would be to not demand that you can roll on every item when you didnt make the group yourself.

It’ll be good from you, like some altruistic action, but you have the right on roll, if members of random party evaluated like equal ones, and they actually should.

@Holyfrog-gehennas

See? There’s no objectively right or wrong answer when it comes to morality. Its always subjective.

If it’s subjective, why you blame on ninja’s? If it’s subjective the opinion of ninja true to the same extent as yours.

@Holyfrog-gehennas

Like has been explained in this thread multiple times, if you dont like the rules set by whomever organize the group then just dont join.

I already answered this above.

@Holyfrog-gehennas

You seem awefully entitled. Nobody is obligated to provide you with groups that give equal terms to every party involved. It’s really that simple.

I didn’t say that somebody obligated to provide groups for others, only that participants of random party should be equal in their claims.

[Holyfrog-gehennas]

@Batushka-ashbringer

If it’s subjective, why you blame on ninja’s? If it’s subjective the opinion of ninja true to the same extent as yours.

Apples and oranges.

Ninjalooters break the already established loot rules, which is clearly something different than just not agreeing the group leaders rules in the first place.

Your claim that it’s morally wrong for the group leader to set up loot rules you do not agree to when you have the option of just not joining the group is absurd.

[Senjiu-mirage-raceway]

I usually make concessions, when I reserve an item. For example, I want the Stoneskin Gargoyle Cape in Stratholme, I tell warriors and rogues that I want that cape and will pass on the barons cape in exchange for that. Nobody ever had a problem with that deal.
Basically, if you reserve one item, just don’t roll need on anything else and it’s fine. If you wanna reserve one item and still want the same rights to loot everything else (for example you’re a rogue and reserve the bracers from the beast and also want to roll on the rend weapons) that’s just greedy imo.

[Resist-earthshaker]

@Batushka-ashbringer

First, when the you have no people in your party that need item you reserved, you are not actually reserved it, cause for reserving you need another person who at least potentially pretend on it.

Again, you are acting like those people were forced to join the group with item reservation…

@Batushka-ashbringer

“if you don’t want to be deprived of your item, don’t join the party” is no answer at all

Yes, it is… Join another party.

@Batushka-ashbringer

you are not explain why the reserving should take place at all

Simply, because people can.

@Batushka-ashbringer

the mere fact of arrangement doesn’t make arrangement a good one

That is your opinion and only that.

@Batushka-ashbringer

What rules do you mean?

The loot rules for the run.

[Lukeus-the-maelstrom]

I’m basically neutral on this issue. I see why you think it’s bad, and I avoid groups with items reserved just on principle, but they’re not immoral for doing so. And someone did make a good point that these group leaders may have put more effort into the process.

I see your point, reserving items seems like a bit of a greedy move - But the comparison you drew to that DARK AS HELL real life scenario is way off.

I don’t think this is the right use of the word immoral if you’re going to draw in-game comparisons to real life actions that are objectively disgusting to any decent human being.

It’s nowhere near comparable. One is a bit of in-game selfishness, the other is morally abhorrent and anyone disagreeing with that really ought to be in jail.

@Holyfrog-gehennas

There’s no objectively right or wrong answer when it comes to morality. Its always subjective.

It’s extremely disturbing that you think that way, given his example.

---

TL/DR: It’s not morally wrong to reserve items in groups but it is arguably selfish/greedy however you want to see it.
You shouldn’t draw parallels between debatable ingame etiquette and objectively morally outrageous actions in reality.

[Argosy-stonespine]

Your premise 1 is not correct. No one is forced to join a group that has items reserved. There is always the choice to join another group or make your own without stuff reserved without consequences.

That is where your analog with the forced prostitution is wrong. Food is a basic need. The hypothetical woman in question probably doesn’t have another way of getting food other than begging, which she basically did.

[Lilîith-silvermoon]

@Batushka-ashbringer

Hi. I think we’re all familiar with a situation when in a chat, people search for group mates for going to a dungeons. And today we’re often see situation when this people say that they are forming group where some items will be reserved. Moreover, many people think that reserving items actually should say something bad about person which make the group, others think that its not and reserving items are fine. In this post I’ll try to give some argument about how we’re really should concern such situations.

I’ll not go far from now, and say from the very beginning, on my opinion reserving item is immoral kind of action. But what I mean when say it’s immoral? All game characters have some person behind them. I mean a real people, who play on this characters. In normal society we are treat each other like equal and free persons, and by equality we understand equality in rights also. Every gamer has this basic rights in a game too, together with specific game kind of rights, which presupposed by game rules. One of this right of equal players is a right on fair roll for items, that they are really need. For example, if we killed the boss into Maraudon, and the ring dropped, all player which actually need the ring (it improves their character, other items may be necessary for the profession, etc.) have a right on take part in a roll on this ring, and no one should deprive them of this right. If somebody take this ring without roll, cause he need it more than others, doing so, he violates basic rights of other players on fair roll, and cause of that we can say, that he make some immoral action. Like in real life, we don’t want to have deal with unfair and immoral persons, also true of the game. But what does a person reserving an item do if not a similar action?

So, here is the argument:

1. If someone reserve some item for himself in a situation, when the other players too need it, then he violates basic right of other players for fair roll.

2. When someone violates basic rights of equal persons, which actually players are, he make immoral action.

3. Then, if someone reserve some item for himself in a situation, when the other players too need it, then he make immoral action.

Several last remarks about my position. First, I talk about the case of random party groups, distribution of items in guilds is not of my concern, such cases need separate discussion. Second, when I talked in a chat about this problem, I met with two main objections to my position. One objection I think is really weak, and goes like this “people always reserve items in game, so I don’t see a problem here”. In answering on it I can say only that this fact, that some players always do some action, don’t make this action is a moral one. The second objection was more interesting, according to it when you reserve some item, you are actually make a kind of arrangement and if so, you can reserve item cause this arrangement was free willed by all participants. But I don’t think that it is correct line of thought. When you are make arrangement, you want make fair arrangement, if you rational person at all, and I not deny that arrangement about item reserving is an arrangement, I’m claim that it’s not a fair arrangement. I give a brief example: when a poor woman need money for food and then she met a man, who have a money, and he make an arrangement with her that he’ll give the money, but she should be make love with him, it’s kinda free-willed arrangement, but most of us I guess don’t think that this kind of arrangement is a fair one, cause in this arrangement a man actually take away woman basic right for self-respect and should be considered actually as immoral person, although he gave the money. The same right in the situation of reserving item, some player would needed to go in dungeon for quest, exp, or by another reason and maybe the only party can take this dungeon is a party in which items are reserved, so he make an arrangement with group leader cause he in need. But again, this arrangement would not be a fair kind of arrangement.

Now, I think that all can see that reserving items not a good thing. Such complex questions, which concern game morality should be discussed on this forum also. And if you want say something, objection or agreement, do it, I’m open for conversation here. And of course feel free to use this argument, if you agree with it in a game when you want to condemn items reservations.

make your own group .

you are to lazy to do so ? suffer consequences.