I don´t care. I just don´t join such groups. Or I could join them if I am desperate and don´t need item that is reserved. To me it´s not really a big deal. We all have choice to join or not join. Or to create our own group.
yup and that goal is to gear up person who organized group .
if you dont like it - make your own group .
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We can’t really help you on this matter. That is beyond our competency as an average Azerothian citizens.
This important issue should be taken directly to the “Committee of fair loot distribution and gearing rights of Azeroth”.
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As a healer I’ve never never needed to reserve items but I don’t see anything wrong with it to be honest.
Since the group leader is the one who chooses who to invite he can either:
A: Not invite any class who can use the item he wants.
or
B: Reserve an item so he can invite people from any class as long as they don’t need it.
In the same vein as a non-leader you can choose to not join a group if you see another member of your class and don’t want to split the loot.
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No that is YOUR personal goal unless you are with guildies or RL friends, and no i dont like it, its borderline narcissistic …
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In premise 1 nothing is said about forcing to join in group. As I already said:
and
Here, the analogy is not based on the fact that food is a basic need, the analogy explains why the fact of an agreement does not make this agreement moral, and this is because this agreement violates the woman’s right to self-esteem, nothing is said about the basic need in food.
Reasons to join a group can be very different. These reasons have nothing to do with the morality of the agreement that is adopted in the group.
Read my answers to previos participants. Your advice to suffer consequnces really weak, it’s like saing “don’t want to be killed, don’t go to the criminal area” and that a smart advise, if we talk about what should I do to avoid criminal action, but this is not the case. We are talking about why that action is criminal (in our case immoral) one.
Morality this, morality that.
If you create the group and inform members of the group what the rules are members can either;
- Suck it up
- Leave
I created this group, i made this happen, i decide. Tyranny of leading a group is the way, you get nowhere by being a little princesa and run around and crying.
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I think people running groups reserving items are cheeky maggots. They only deserve that no one joins them to discourage this cheeky practice.
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People complaining about reserved items don’t understand the basic principle of supply and demand.
Such runs are an option, not obligation. You dont have to join them. Complaining about having an option makes no sense whatsoever.
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Principle of supply and demand is economic principle, it’s nothing to do with morality.
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Players shouldnt all have the same rewards for it to be fair. Some players contribute more than others - tanks, for example. There is a higher demand for tanks and therefore they are more valuable in groups. So there is nothing immoral about giving them more rewards.
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We were looking for a tank for our LBRS group. Leader says he’s found a tank, but he’ll only come if he can reserve Blackcrow - currently BiS for pre-raid hunters. Wished them well, and was on my way. No point in trying compete with him - they could always find another DPS, but not another tank (not easily, anyway).
Already lost one earlier today to a Rogue - unreserved, but I’d rather be given a slight chance with the dice, than none at all.
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If players are equal and in fact they are, they should have fair rights on roll. It’s not obvious that tanks contribute more than others if it’s so, then try to complete hard dungeon without dps or heal. I don’t see how you decide that contribution of tank more than contribution of other group participants simply in virtue of his being tank.
Higher demand on tanks don’t mean that their contribute more, it’s mean only that tanks are rare and less popular role if fact.
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That’s what I was talking about when I said you don’t understand supply and demand. Because actually it does.
Guess there’s no point explaining any further. Feel free to think reserving is immoral and what not, the truth is - it works for the benefit of everybody involved, so there’s nothing to complain about.
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I never join such groups, even if they reserve items I don’t need. Also take note of guilds of those players and avoid them as well.
So far I’ve seen only players from bad guilds reserve stuff. Players from decent guilds don’t do that.
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Again, supply and demand are economical notions, they are nothing say about morality of actions whether tanks contribute a lot or not.
If you know how it works you can explain it to me, Instead of empty words that I do not know something, I explained my position quite clearly.
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Ok, I’ll try again.
Here’s the deal: all players are different and contribute to the group’s success to a different extent. And the value of a player absolutely has something to do with his role - if tanks are in higher demand, that means they are more valuable. If they are more valuable - they bring more value to the group. Should be pretty simple so far.
Now, imagine I, as a hunter, am creating a Strat UD group and reserve… the cloak, the mount, the xbow, runecloth and all the holy water. Is that immoral? Maybe. But its irrelevant, because I’ll never find players to fill my group. You know why? Because my contribution as a dps isn’t enough to justify such high rewards, and most people would prefer to just find another dps who isn’t that greedy, which is gonna be pretty easy.
Now, imagine I was a tank doing the same dungeon, and I want to reserve the Baron cloak. I probably wouldn’t even run this dungeon if I couldn’t reserve it, because its not worth it for me in that case. So I reserve the cloak and then find people to join my group. Is it going to be easy? Yes, because tanks are very needed and people understand that me coming to tank for them is a contribution that justifies higher reward. If they didn’t think that way, they wouldn’t join. Is it immoral? If you think it is, and you would rather see me not running this dungeon at all than doing it with a reserved item, then you’re not a reasonable person I’m afraid.
Once again, everyone who joins such runs benefits from it. Rather than waiting even longer for another tank they can join faster, and an item being reserved is a modest price for that.
This doesn’t necessarily apply to tanks only, this was just an example of how some people contribute to the groups success more than others and therefore unequal rewards are justified and not immoral.
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You confuse the concept of the value of the role and contribution of a particular player. A valuable role, like a tank, can still contribute less than the rest, for example, when the tank has worse equipment and plays poorly, and DPS, on the contrary, are good players.
The value of his role is a simple fact about the state of affairs, it does not tell us anything about how rights should be distributed between real people, whom their characters represent in the game, and this is an area of morality. And if we believe that people should be equal in their rights, then also their characters, regardless of the state of affairs in the game regarding the roles of the classes.
In the situation that you described, when people simply decide not to go into the dungeon, the fact of reservation simply will not take place, which means there will be no bad action, at least potentially. I already answered this above. I’m again quote:
Next, from the fact that a group should have a tank, and this tank is rare, it does not follow that the tank has more basic rights. He is not the first among equals, his participation in the group is just one of the conditions for the existence of this group. It is simply a fact about what is, but not what should be. And there should be an equal chance for all participants to take part in roll of necessary items.
And about the benefits, my experience suggests and by the way some of the people who answered in this post also said that parties with reserved items are going much longer than usual, so it’s debatable that it’s in the interests of all participants when we talk about time to make a group.
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But you do realize reserving is basically a better option than simply not inviting people who need that item?
Would you call it immoral too, and demand that you should be invited in such a situation? Just trying to see how far this logic goes.
It’s a difficult question. As long as I think the following here, on the one hand you are not obliged to invite anyone else to the group, on the other hand, when you refuse to invite someone, you do this for some reason. So, it seems to me that you do not have a good reason to refuse to accept someone into the group because of the reservation of the item. On the other hand, you may not invite a person to the group simply because of “I don’t want”, but “I don’t want” a strange reason for refusing and usually some other motive is hidden under it. Then the other person may also not want to have business with you in the future. Apparently, you really should take another player to the group if he needs your item, but should not in the sense of obligation, but simply because you do not have a good reason for refusing.
In any case, so far I can’t give a definite answer here.