Or: Rather than taking away one class’ toys, give some to other classes. Or do we really want even more pruning
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What could you give to other classes that can rival the rogue’s shroud?
Some ppl seem to think shroud has always been part of the rogue class; it hasnt. For the longest time it did not exist. I dont know when it was added, bc i was gone from early panda to mid draenor. Prolly Draenor. So no, it is not a part of the Rogue class. Shroud is not stealth, it is the option to group stealth within a certain range.
I had 2 times again today and yesterday where shrouding in TW led to a wipe, from total uses of… 2.
Used to skip mobs that get in at boss anyway (auto pull) in mana tombs and one, also mana tombs where someone was late. Rest decided to go on wo that person and wiped bc of missing that person. (disc priest as dps which they estimated didnt do all that much damage anyway, but didnt realise the extra healing)
The shroud is a disaster in pug groups.
As for mythic skipping; since these are timed, it is of great benefit to have a rogue in the group. This makes for an unfair advantage.
It needs to go and should have never been introduced at all.
And errr skipping is almost always a bad idea.
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I disagree. If we remove shroud, then remove massgrip, too. If we remove shroud, there is no single reason to bring a rogue.
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Sorry, but what has massgrip to do with shroud?
There are some distinqt problems with shroud.
What is the problem with massgrip, if any?
Ive seen other ppl mention it here too, but i have not seen any justification for a comparison.
The problem imo is the mythic dgs themselves. Ill explain:
Since these exist in different difficulties, with increasing gear, ppl will want the highest chance on completion. This directly leads to specific classes/specs.
Before mythic, this problem didnt exist. Best gear from dgs was from hcs. With a good group; geared and experienced, they were easy. No one nagged about a specific class not doing as much damage as other classes. Bc we got the job done anyway.
Now classes/specs have their own qualities and we dont want all classes/specs to be the same. That means mythic can not exist without the discrimination of classes/specs.
Imo mythic should go… it should never have been introduced.
But rogues shroud also needs to go. Tired of wiping bc idiots want to skip things in df pugs
Can we please stop with the class pruning and balance the game in another way? Like buffing the utility of other classes Instead of the whining and finger pointing that would be great!
We get it. Shroud is powerful and it streanghtens the reason why you would bring a rogue. The problem here mr. DK is that if they keep pruning classes because X class has something that Y class envy, then you will end up with a much more boring playstyle of said class and guess what? Now you’ve got your way and someone will look at your mass grib/Absorbs/Waterwalk/younameit and then we go again!
Pruning is NOT the way to go. There has got to be another way. Look at how the community have reacted in the last couple of expansions when loads of abilites have been altered/removed. Look no further than warlock
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An utility spell that the devs keep making it a requirement that’s landing on only 1 class. The problem is excacerbated when we talk about specific bosses that require it (Aggramar in legion) or m+. In order to make the deathball have all the mobs move to you ,you need lik 15 intrerupts and god knows how much health to kite them in or just a bdk.
THis currently leads to bdk being 90-95% of the population of +15 keys cause it’s no other reason to bring anything else but a blood dk. IF they gave it back to DPS and another spec you could run with other tanks.
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I think the problem here is mainly that skipping mobs has become an integral part of the dungeon design. Abilities like that are just part of that design decision.
Best would probably be to give mobs more detection, but then entire dungeons might have to be redesigned, so this might not be a solution at all.
I love this attitude!!! Much healthier.
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It’s also the thing blizzard wants to avoid.
Apparently we had too many buttons to click in MoP and had to lower them down a little.
To an extent that was true, especially with dps monks and demo locks as far as I remember.
Edit: Having no options feels bad though, having no options when others do feels even worse.
Ah ok, now i understand.
But that is in one situation then, where it is a very handy abillity, not the same as an option to skip on mulple occassions.
Can easily be fixed by not having that abillity work on those balls.
Again, for the ppl complaining it would be pruning and this would be bad:
It is not pruning, bc the class never had this ability. Pruning here, is taking away all sorts of a class that were important to the class and making it much easier to play them
For rogues: Not having to continuously watch your combo’s. Being able to carry your combo’s to another target. Greatly increased duration of combo’s (they used to be gone in seconds). Not having to recuperate, but just click ‘heal’. Not having to buy and apply the appropriate poisons. The removal of about 5 distinqt abilities/finishers. Etc. THAT was pruning.
Adding shroud, which obviously has design problems, and then taking it away again is NOT pruning.
I think you missunderstood what making the deathball meant. A deathball is just alot of mobs togheter in 1 spot ,bdk just press 1 button to make it while all other tanks have a very hard time doing even a decent deathball they can’t make the mobs impossible cause this is for all mobs.
But this is another way of nerfing it maybe they can add new adds that are casters and immune to grips so if you deathball and they can’t be draged in an then no cc on them etc make mass grip not that good.
Also regarding Shroud. This was in mop removed in wod and addeed in the middle of Legion (someone that played in mop please correct if that’s the case or it was cata). But removing it is PRUNING cause the class had it at one point that wasn’t BFA.
I would like to see shroud back in rated battlegrounds. It is such a distinct strategic ability.
If stealth is too strong in mythic more stealth detection to creatures is the obvious solution, as it doesn’t impact everything else. Or rather, more utility to other classes.
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Err no, i have 3 top lvl rogues (and 3 top lvl dks). My first top lvl rogue i made in LK. There was no shroud. It was added in Draenor or Legion. I dont even use it, nor have i ever, bc i consider it a cheat to skip mobs and bc it so often ends in a wipe. (but i pug a lot and do not do mythics. Reason for that was that i had to catch up, after being away for a while and had to lvl all my, close to 30 top lvls to top again, etc). Also the timed mechanism of mythic is a disaster. Mythic needs to go. Its utterly destructive to group mentality.
as for the deathball; didnt know the expression.
Errr, yes the massgrip is very strong. I use it a lot. My main is blooddk and ofc if someone brings up smth you like/use a lot on your main, you are going to protest. But i can see how it may be too strong.
Also play top lvl tank warriors and pala’s. The problem was that bdk was always bad on movement/gap openers, closers. Compared to warriors charge and jump back and pala’s mount, but even more avenger’s shield which usually hits (and could often silence, so pulling casters) 3 mobs, so bdks were weak. Not anymore so with the massgrip, although it does have a long cd and limited range. I dont really see the problem, bc packs of mobs are so far apart, you cannot massgrip several packs. Not even if you could ride about pulling, lets say 3 packs, bc the casters will not move. They will also be out of range for massdg.
The only place it is a huge advantage is on a whole lot of (low hp/low dmg) trash. So even though i am willing to admit it is a strong abil i dont see a problem really.
Maybe in some bfa dgs i havent done yet the mechanics is such that it does create such an advantage. Then it is poor design for that dg. Either way, i wont cry over losing massdg, bc i have been used to not having it for many years.
Dont see the comparisson to shroud… still.
I think it’s an Okay and fun group buff. Just make it share debuffs with heroism/bloodlust.
If Shroud of Concealment is the ability in question, all it basically adds to a Mythic+ run is efficiency… to get past mob. packs that aren’t deemed necessary to be killed to make 100% metric for the complete.
How essential it is should be down to the group leader & their knowledge of the pathing required for an efficient run in the Dungeon of choice.
Is it possible to take the 'path of least (mob.) resistance without using SoC…? Possibly; I don’t run dungeons enough - never mind on M+ - to know for certain.
If it is, however, it may well depend on the affixes of the week & the key level.
At the end of the day, I don’t run M+, so if I’m talking out of my rear end, add that to the reasons to ignore my input.
So instead of buffing other classes, let’s prune rogues even more? Come on.
I always say: Buff underpowered classes instead of nerfing better classes.
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Then you simply inflate the numbers/utility so much that dungeons become incredibly more difficult and punishing to the point where the casual playerbase cannot even enter.
The most lenient way to go about it is to give a true sight creature to every mob pack, making the ability essentially useless which is the same with pruning or disabling it in most cases.
If you want to give dps DKs mass grip, symbiosis to druids, you’ll just create another problem of this type where those classes take the rogue’s place as the dominant “go-to” class instead.
For those who try to brunt everything with “wah nerf it” Gonna link this so OP can be enlightened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsC8io4w1sY
Sure its not strictly related to WoW by any means but the general rule of thumb should still apply. The game would be boring if everything was equal and barebones. So please give some thought before you open your mouth by accident.