That is not what I or anyone else in this thread has proposed.
What has been proposed is that an automated queue system could fix some of the problems associated with LFG, and that it would overall be an improvement over LFG.
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It has been said myriads of time, but the main issue is the fact that the playerbase is not split as 20% tanks - 20% healers - 60% damage dealers. It’s more like 10% tanks - 15% healers - 75% damage dealers. No system, manual or automatic, that tries to enforce a 1-1-3 grouping will solve this. One of the following 3 have to take place:
- Implement AI tanks and healers so that damage dealers can enter content. This is almost a no-go solution because then we’d have complaints of either non-perfect AI which screws up runs, or perfect AI which then makes it a horrible experience for players who do not get in a group with AI
- Implement versions of M+ where the group can be 1-0-4, 0-1-4 or even 0-0-5. This is also no-go because it cannot be balanced.
- Change the party composition from 1-1-3 to 1-1-4. This is my prefered solution.
Not one disputes this.
But what is being said, is that an IT system can arrange groups faster and more efficiently than players can manually do in LFG.
That does not solve the problem, but it does improve upon it.
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All your “metaphisical” justifications for a Matchmaking System dont really count to be honest. In PRACTICE this is the reality:
- DDs complain that they spend 2h in Donorgal playing the LFG mini-game. THAT is the main complaint. No amount of “philosophical and moral” yapping will change the fact that people will wait 2h in Donorgal.
Back to my bridge analogy. You can paint the rust with all kinds of “moral” and “phylosofical” arguments you want. But rust is rust. And the bridge falls regardless if you dont put new beams.
So lets talk about something that ACTUALLY solves the issue at hand. The “new beams”. Lets put some QoL improvements in the current LFG. Lets re-work rolls in general… for example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVtmJI7GzxM
Lets normalize some utility of classes… And the list goes on.
Once we have solved that issue. THEN we can talk about the “metaphysical” aspects of SoloQ. If it actually makes sense or not.
But not as a parallel system to LFG. But as a replacement to LFG.
But I repeat. BEFORE that happens, we have to address the rust in this really, really old bridge called M+.
I believe that an automaking system in this case will barely have an impact in reducing queue times.
The current situation definitely differs widely according to your key level, but in general one spends around 5-10 minutes in “queue”, then around 3-4 minutes to go to the dungeon entrance and buff, and then around 25-30 minutes to clear the dungeon itself. An autoqueue system only shoves a few minutes from the first and second parts, essentially cutting down the entire run by just 10%.
It is mathematically an improvement, but it still doesn’t solve the core issue of some players (tanks and to some extent healers) having a “non-combat” time in the order of 1-5 minutes and of other players (damage dealers ) having a “non-combat” time in the order of 15-20 minutes.
Yet you fail to demonstrate why and simply pivot to talking about your own issue with group-making that is not related to the discussion concerning an automated queue system.
It doesn’t sound like you’re making an argument Uda, it just sounds like you’re annoyed we’re not discussing this other things jeg you want to talk about.
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I will explain why that belief is unfounded.
Let’s say for the sake of the example, that you have a tank, healer, and 3 DPS.
Let’s say the tank makes a group and invites 2 DPS.
Let’s say the healer also makes a group and invites 1 DPS.
Now these two groups are stuck waiting until more players show up to join their groups.
This is inefficient and unoptimized behavior, because it is human behavior.
An IT system will look at the tank, healer, and 3 DPS, and immediately put them into the same group.
That is the most efficient and most optimal course of action, and the IT system always behaves that way.
That reduces wait times.
The above example is not specific to WoW. That is literally the way IT revolutionized the world in the 90s by optimizing human behavior. Hospital wait times were significantly reduced once an IT system could optimally control patient appointments, rather than a group of secretaries.
It is the same second revolution that AI presents, as it can be even more efficient and optimized at these kinds of tasks.
If you go and look at Group Finder right now, then you will see lots of incomplete groups. And if you pause the picture, you could probably rearrange all those people into groups more optimally than they’ve managed to do themselves. That would reduce their time waiting to get a group.
That is what an automated queue system would do.
I must admit I find it weird having to explain the advantages of computers and IT software in a video game forum to a bunch of nerds. But here we are.
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?? I fail to demostrate why “metaphysical” and “moral” dosent count? YOU fail to address the issue and contradict yourself all the time.
Its in the post. Read it carefully:
How will you reduce the wait times of DDs?
You have to take an ACTION to do that. Which action? MORE TANKS AND HEALERS. That’s how. I mean… YOU said it yourself Jito:
You UNDERSTAND why a tank/healer shortage impacts DD wait times. You GET IT.
But then you throw out this instead:
Its NOT 10k Players. Its Xk tanks. Xk Healers. And Xk DDs. The SUM total is 10k. You say the “average wait time” is 8 mintues. For WHO Jito? For DDs? Or for tanks?
Because its NOT 8 minutes. Its MORE. For DDs SPECIFICALLY. <— HERE IS THE PROBLEM.
You WOULD be correct by saying “the average wait time is 8 minutes for EVERYONE” if and only if out of the 10k people in the quew, 2k were tanks. 2k were healers. And 6k were DDs.
BUT THAT IS NOT THE CASE. You admitted it YOURSELF.
We NEED 2k tanks. We HAVE 1k tanks. You want less wait time? You have to produce 1k tanks more.
And THAT my friend is why me and many others keep saying this:
I mean… seriously Jito… I dont pivot arguments. I say the same thing over and over again… MORE tanks. MORE healers.
Does SoloQ produce more tanks and healers? NO… then its not a solution. And you keep making “funky math” to justify it.
Like:
What are you talking about? Reducing the wait times from 2h to 1:59 minutes? How is that even a solution?
The bottle-neck are tank and healer rolls. Its the brunt of the wait times. You make more tanks/healers and wait times go from 2h to 8 minutes. Not from 2h to 1h59 minutes.
But this is not pvp where you just need “players” and the system will do the “rest” and even that can be argued about if there are role locks in some pvp modes.
If there are no tanks or healers in queue. Then you can have 500 000 players - aka as dps in queue and they will still wait in queue for a long time…
So the car analogy works only you still are forgeting or outright ignoring that cars need petrol or fuel(aka tanks and healers) without them. Even if you give every dps a car…their lot wont change a bit id they cant use said car because they got no fuel to power it!
Do also keep in mind that Blizz insists on keeping it faction based when it is automated queue, so that will affect queue times aswell as there will be less players to choose from.
I understand your point, and it has merit. But there are many cases that aren’t taken into consideration. For example, maybe those 2 groups of 1tank+2dps and 1healer+1dps have different goals (like they tank and healer want to a do a dungeon that the other does not want to do), and therefore that’s why they don’t “combine” in the first place.
I thought this had changed? I have been in lots of cross-faction dungeons and random BGs. I think faction-locked autoqueue only applies to LFR?
An automated queue system.
What’s being argued is that an automated queue system puts people together in groups faster and more optimally than those people can do manually themselves.
If at this point you disagree with that, after having been presented with countless explanations and examples, then we’ll simply have to agree to disagree.
That’s okay.
Oh, then never mind then, I haven’t paid attention as I never do queued content. Thought it was still faction locked unless u were a full premade.
Sure.
But that would also be true for Group Finder.
Like I said earlier:
People dont like to play tanks or healers because there is something wrong from a class design perspective.
If automated quew would incentivize more to play that roll, then we would not need ANY of this to begin with:
Healers/tanks already have a ton of benefits and convenience with the current LFG system. And in-spite of those benefits, people STILL prefer to play DD and wait 2h in Donorgal.
What incentives would you have in a SoloQ that would make DDs change their mind and play healer/tank?
Because apparently, not even material rewards like gold/mats can make them change their mind. Because the “goody” bags for tanks/healers are there ALL THE TIME. And most people STILL prefer to play DD (otherwise there would not be any goody-bags).
Sure. But that’s no different from how the game already presents itself.
You can queue for a Heroic dungeon and you know you’ll get into a group that the system has decided for you and that your shared objective is to simply get through the dungeon quickly and without dying.
If you have any specific goals beyond that, then LFG is there and you can make your own group and manually invite players who share that goal.
The same would be true for an automated queue system in Mythic+. You’d still retain the ability to make groups in LFG if you have that desire or need. The automated queue system is simply another option.
But you are arguing pretty much shemantics at this point. Thinking in a vacuum - Are cars faster then bicycles? Yes they are.
Now will a car with an completely empty gas tank will be faster than a bicycle? No…unless you are some olympic bodybuilder who can outrun a bicycle while pushing/pulling a car.
Look for solutions which can work in real life, not on paper under ideal conditions.
Then fundamentally the situation for dps does not change at all under curent real life conditions. So Blizzard should still waste resources and manpower to build a system which will fix nothing and change nothing?
Ok, maybe we are of different mindset but if I see that the ship’s hull is already faulty in early stages, I stop construction not continue building only for it to sink the moment it touches water to…prove I was right?
None besides what the game currently presents.
The purpose of an automated queue system is not to address the issue relating to the disproportionality between roles, but simply to put groups together more efficiently and more optimized than players can manually do themselves in LFG.
That’s it.
Again, you are trying to discuss and solve an issue that no one here is proposing that an automated queue system would solve. What is being said is that an automated queue system would be good regardless, because it solves many other issues, even if it doesn’t solve that one issue.
Is that a flimsy way of saying that you don’t believe an IT system can manage to arrange thousands of people into groups in a more optimized and efficient manner than they can manually do themselves?
I feel like I have given so many examples, explanations, and even car analogies, that the point should be made by now.
So it’s either agree or disagree with the point that an IT system is more efficient and optimized for this task than thousands of individual people are.
So which is it?
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If there would be a huge surplus of tanks and healer that our current “keyholders” cant handle or accommodate then I would agree with you.
Right now. There is no point for “optimization” or going from “handmade to industrial assembly line” if those hands are just laying idle waiting for “materials” arrive.
A factory doesnt produce more products by going to an automated assembly line if the material supply chain CANNOT feed said assembly line.
And all those issues stems from the core issue - lack of tank and healers. Everything else is secondary issues or complications.
Again for the third time. its more efficient and faster IF provided by the materials to work it.
Do you honestly think we need an AI or IT to click “invite” to that sole tank or healer which finally poops up in the signup window? Just dont start arguing shemantics again and use “well IT would invite 0.5 sec faster than a human would taking into account human reactions times and etc”. Fundamentally it changes nothing.
Will repeat once again.
IT will only work faster IF THE CONDITIONS FOR IT TO WORK FASTER ARE PROVIDED!