But thats the issue. Ok, you probably know the manufacturing process more than I do but for a simple kindergarten level discussion. Lets go with basic - you need wood to make the toys. Again in super basic level for the sake of discussion.
No matter how advanced technology you use, use robotic workforce, work day and night, reduce breaks…whatever.
You still need what? Materials! You need wood! Now you can optimize the supply process to reduce waste and get most of that 1 board as you can but eventually you can optimize so much before you you cant anymore. Cut out more wood and your toys will be half finished with missing parts and etc.
So what do you do at this point to increase the toy production further? Increase wood supply right?
And thats the issue I am trying to highlight here. We need to get more wood in the production cycle! 1 board will remain 1 board, you can optimize it to be 3 boards just like that .
Also tanks and healers are not some “robotic workforce” which you can try to optimize the out of it for max gains. If I am in the mood to run 2x m+ dungeons and then thats what I will do and nothing more.
For your “optimization” you want more runs to accommodate more dps right?
One option is to make the current tanks and healers run more keys. But good luck with that. I doubt many will run more keys and runs simply “for the greater good”. They play for their enjoyment first not to serve others. Also I can only run 1 m+ dungeon at the time. I cant run multiple dungeons simultaneously
So other option to get more m+ runs is… drum roll… get more tanks and healers in the system.
And we are once again at square 1 which me and Uda are arguing = We need more materials - MORE WOOD. MORE tanks and more healers BEFORE we can optimize for more M+ runs.
Lets work with your toy analogy here. You can only make as many toys as the most scarce raw material you have. And you only have 1 / minute. Your supplier cannot give you more.
If you need 1 special screw for each toy and you only get 1 of those screws supplied every minute. You can only make 1 toy / minute.
And if you got clients that want more than 1 toy / minute, then they will have to wait in line.
In this analogy, you cannot take the screw away. It would be like doing dungeons with out a tank.
But you can optimize production all you want. You can make toys faster. You can make them more efficient. Cheaper. You can do whatevr you want. But if you can only make as many toys as screws. And you can only make them at 1 / minute.
If a client wants 2 toys / minute. There is only ONE solution. Get 2 screws / minute. Or he waits. His choice.
I am saying that players show bias toward who they pick in LFG.
And then I’m saying that an automated queue system shows no bias. It is a piece of software for crying out loud! It has no other function that to fill a group up with a tank, a healer, and dps that are adequate for the content they’ve queued for. What bias does the queue system for LFR show?! What bias does the queue system for Heroic dungeons show?!
And remember, I merely brought this up because you said all issues with group-making are caused by a lack of tanks and healers. I simply brought up fairness (bias) to show you that that isn’t so.
Dude…You are talking complete trash right now. I’d get more reason from Donald Trump’s truth posts than from this.
Inferior to mine?! The hell??? I have said that players in LFG show bias about who they pick and an automated queue sys…
You know what. Forget it. We’re done.
With you an Lynlia I think I will conclude the following and step out of this discussion now:
I understand the problem you’re describing, and I don’t disagree with it.
You partly seem to understand the problem I’m describing, and you seem to disagree with the parts you understand for reasons that appear misunderstood, and then there are parts you simply don’t seem to understand and which I appear unable to convey to you so that you do understand.
With that in mind I’ll say scratch it up to simply agreeing to disagreeing on the matters that are mutually understood, and then the matters you don’t seem to understand will simply just be left as such, whether because I fail to explain those matters or you fail to comprehend them.
Thanks for the discussion. I’m off now.
I think my original input in this thread was simply that I predict we’ll eventually get an automated queue system for Mythic+, because all roads lead to Rome and Blizzard’s game design tends to lead to…well…queue systems.
I still hold the conviction of that prediction.
How about this. How about instead of “Bias” we use the word “preference”.
You have 100 DDs. You need 30.
A person in LFG will “prefer” 30 DD with 3k rating. And 70 DD will get left behind. ← these 70 are saying that only “the meta” gets picked and its unfair. They wait too long.
A computer in SoloQ will “prefer” 30 DD with XYZ metric coded into the software. And 70 DDs will get left behind. ← these 70 will say that only “ZYX” gets picked and its unfair. They wait too long.
Different ways to fill up 30 DD spots. Same result in the end.
Who sais that “gigachad DDs with 3k rating” is a bad metric? You say the computer should use other metrics that seem more fair to you.
OK. And WHY are they more fair? To YOU? Maybe not to me…
You do not seem to understand that me and Uda are arguing the main cause.
You are just outright ignoring it and trying to argue that all other issues are some isolated cases witch can be separately “fixed” without problem.
All your described issues stem or are influenced by the main culprit.
Its like arguing why the tree’s leaves are becoming dry and falling out(when its not autumn).
When me and Uda try to explain that “the tree is growing in polluted soil and the problems starts in its roots and all other problems are just consequence of it” you just outright ignore it and “yeah yeah but we are taking about leaves! We need to fix the leaves!”
I am sorry but what’s the point of trying to “fix” complications and symptoms if you outright ignore the cause of them?
So when DDs say “I wait for 2h in LFG” and tanks/healers consistently say:
Just to use someone’s elses words…
What exactly do you think is going on during those 2h? Il tell you whay: Those 70 DDs are waiting for the existing tanks/healers to finish their key so the next 3 DDs in line get in.
That’s what it is. its this. LITERALLY.
Overwhatch USED to have a problem with wait times of DDs. Because not enough support was joining the matches.
They solved the issue by changing group size from 5/5 to 6/6. That is ONE way of solving the problem.
Not with a more fancy matchamiking algorithm.
Starcraft dosent have tanks/healers. Everone is the same.
There is no bottleneck. So finding a match on a 1v1 takes literally secconds.
I understand. I’ve acknowledged that multiple times.
You seem to constantly forget that I’ve said that I understand that and that I acknowledge it as such.
I simply argue something else, i.e. optimization and efficiency and fairness of a queue system over LFG.
That’s something else. I don’t have to discuss on your premises. If you don’t want to discuss what I’m discussing, then discuss with someone else who wants to discuss your thing.
Weird having to explain this to adult people…
Frak! Off for really really now. I do have to go shopping and sitting here is not optimal or efficient use of time (that’s a reference to my point in this discussion).
And I have explained to you a thousand times how the process can be optimized so those healers and tanks get faster back into the group finding again and the dps thus have to wait a little less than 2 hours.
But it falls on deaf ears. I’m either the dumbest teacher or you’re the dumbest student.
I’ll accept either outcome as a conclusion to this.
We are discussing what you propose and we are once again arguing that optimization alone wont simply create more runs out of thin air. If the current John A tank does 1-2x m+s per hour, he wont suddenly be running 50x m+s per hour. If there are 1000 tanks in play who does 2000 runs an hour, then you can’t “optimize them” to do 4000 runs an hour. And for tanks and healers, queues are close to instant. So if it takes them 30 mins to do 1 run, an “optimized soloQ” system wont make them do said run faster or more in number.
This is a very important issue.
This is a game and tanks and healers also got to have fun.
So their roles need to somehow feel less of a burden and more like something people will enjoy doing.
In the case of the healers, I think they could use a lot more streamlining so the healer does not have to play a game of watching and clicking on raid/dungeon frames (instead of actually looking at the fights) all the time to keep up with making so their group stays alive.
The tanks should imho also have their abilities have more of that explosive oomph that the dps have. Maybe they could also make it less needed to know an optimal dungeon route. Also less active mitigation. I think more people would prefer a damage rotation instead of active mitigation.
You already do more than enough dmg as tank and to have active mitigation up is one buttom in most cases, as monk its up if you do your dps rotation.
Dont do it more easy as it is already <.<
back to topic: Dungeon finder for mplus will have a queue timer for dds which is probably 30min+ and you wont have a proper set up everytime. With the new leaver system in mplus, you already read enough of hostage situations, where one player wants to abandon the key, but 4 wont and the single player standing afk at the start or kills himself to deplete the timer faster. Yep more systems will help and wont be annoying time waste
I dont normally agree with streamers. But I agree with this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVtmJI7GzxM
But basically, in a nutshell: Healers are too OP. We need to nerf them ALL.
The more modifiers, CDs, and defensive CDs of DDs… the more bursty does the damage need to be.
They need to tone down a bit on the burst damage. Its OK to have it, but not when every single pack and boss has it. So they need to tone down a bit the power of the healers.
They did that in DF s1 and it was awful as a holy priest, you straight up couldn’t heal hyrja or the raging tempest right at the start. It just dealt damage too fast. Then holy priest got buffed, buffed and buffed and then some more buffs. Still wasn’t enough. Then the dungeons got nerfed.
Also, tone down the power? Like, what are you talking about? We’re healing not even 10% with our spammable heals, it’s absurd having to cast like 20 spammable heals to bring someone to full hp.
out of it for max gains. If I am in the mood to run 2x m+ dungeons and then thats what I will do and nothing more.
