Rumors on Reddit: Is Blizzard planning a Dungeon Finder for M+?

[Uda-uldum]

@Jito-turalyon

Blizzard won’t be taking anything away from what already exists, they’ll just add another system to it. That’s always been their approach.

They didn’t remove LFG when they added automated queueing for dungeons back in WotLK.
They didn’t remove all the other raid difficulties or the manual grouping for them when they added LFR in Cataclysm.

Its not about removing them or adding them. Tell me. What happened to those Matchmaking options? Why are LFR and Normal/Heroic dungeons at the bottom of the difficulty tiers? Because it wasent the case back in the day. Those systems were meant to replace the LFG. Add QoL improvements…

Me and many others already told you why: Because COMPLETION RATE is important. When matchmaking dungeons and raids came, nobody that played in them actually managed to complete the content. It was simply too hard.

So. What you are asking for is to add 10 levels between Normal Dungeons and Heroic Dungeons. Except that you ALSO want Myth track gear for completing a Heroic Dungeon.

Which wont happen and you know it.

I already said:

@Uda-uldum

Because they did it already. 3 times. And failed 3 times.

If they do a matchmaking for M+ then they are literally stupid. Cause implementing the same thing again expecting different results is stupid.

@Jito-turalyon

Because it structures the gameplay.

If you can ensure that everyone who’s queueing up for a +5 key has beaten a +4 key and has the necessary item level to deal with the challenges of a +5 key, well then you’ve got a capable group for successfully beating the +5 key.

That’s the strength of an automated queue system: Blizzard gets to set the requirements on the player side and they get to tune the dungeon difficulties to their liking. When you’re in control of both sides of the equation, you can pretty much ensure the gameplay experience that will take place.

And if I disagree with blizzards way to structure MY gameplay? Then what?

You have to realize that there are as many ways to play M+ as players doing it. And you want to set in stone ONE way of doing it?

So you want a system that works for both for those that need “tone to the dungeon difficulties” and those that dont. And everyone in between.

NOPE. We are all adults. We can take our own decisions here.

@Jito-turalyon

Sure. Blizzard just has a history of wanting to ensure that players actually go through the progression and take the steps up the ladder, even if those steps feel redundant. Blizzard don’t really do skips in their design, so I don’t believe they’ll suddenly start opting for that. If they don’t do it in Diablo IV they sure as hell are not going to do it in World of Warcraft.

You got your steps in an infinitely scalable system. The crux of the issue here is how punishing is failure and how rewarding is the success.

That’s hat we are discussing.

@Jito-turalyon

No. I said that there would be multiple ways of acquiring keys. Could be any activity really. Could even just buy them from a vendor. Wouldn’t even have to be keys. Could be anything.

How about they just simply make it appear on your bag like today? With out extra steps.

If I want to do side-content I do side-content because I want to. Not because Blizzard tells me to.

And you seem to mention Diablo quite a lot. Are you sure you are playing the right game? Cause Diablo is not the same as WoW.

@Jito-turalyon

All of Blizzard’s automated queue systems have been a success, which is ultimately why they’ll do it, because they are driven by metrics and if they can implement a design that makes numbers go brrrrrrr they’ll do that.

When they added automated queueing for dungeons in WotLK the participation exploded.
When they added LFR for raiding in Cataclysm the participation exploded.
When they added Solo Shuffle for Arenas in Dragonflight the participation exploded.
When they added Rated Battlegrounds Blitz for The War Within the participation exploded.

Blizzard’s own motto of old will steer ultimately their design:
Accessibility is King

Not true. Not “when they added”. AFTER nerfing the difficulty, participation exploded. And adding Mythic/M+ afterwards to compensate the nerf.

But that is not what we are arguing about easy content here. We are arguing M+ keys 1-10. That is what we are arguing.

You put a quew for keys 1-10… and yes. Participation will increase. AFTER nerfing them to heroic levels, and compensating it with a Mythic ++ or whatever comes after.

And then we will have this discussion again 10 years later.

[Lynlia-silvermoon]

@Jito-turalyon

It’s how it is for every other game. Overwatch had shortage of support and tanks. It still has that. But it’s less of an issue now because an automated queue system distributes players more efficiently into groups than manual grouping does. It’s why it’s the way of modern gaming in general. Players don’t want to spend time making groups, they want to spend time playing the games. So automated queue systems become popular because they are the best solution to more quickly get players into groups so they can play the games whilst at the same time reducing the burden on the players to make the groups.

You are comparing apples to oranges…again.
PvP =/=PvE.

I think Uda would write a dissertation on this topic so I will simply ask 1 simple question.
Point to a game where end-game hard PvE content with best rewards is soloquable and is a sucess.
Again… Hard end-game content, not your average questing dungeons or “LFR level stuff”.

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Lynlia-silvermoon

You are comparing apples to oranges…again.

It’s the same dynamics.

I’m going to back out now, because I’m not going to sit here and just have a discussion that I’ve already had where I can just refer back to something I’ve already said.

Nice chat, I’m off now.

The future will reveal what Blizzard will do.

I remain confident that they’ll end up with an automated queue system for Mythic+.

I can see personal reasons for why some players might not like that, but from a general design perspective it seems to be the obvious solution for World of Warcraft. The only thing I could see give the developers pause is their desire to encourage more socialization in WoW. But I don’t think that’s going to weigh heavily against increasing accessibility and popularity of a core gameplay aspect of World of Warcraft.

Regardless, ciao!

[Gloober-aszune]

I can see them doing it just to make money but it will probably so easy no one will want to do it. Even the people currently asking for it who don’t do M+.

Part of the fun in lots of stuff is that it’s difficult and you can mess up. So it’ll just turn into what Normal and HC dungeons are currently.

[Uda-uldum]

@Jito-turalyon

It’s how it is for every other game. Overwatch had shortage of support and tanks. It still has that. But it’s less of an issue now because an automated queue system distributes players more efficiently into groups than manual grouping does.

Its a zero sum game Jito. Distributes better?

You have a key. And you need 3 DDs and 30 show up on the list.

You will pick the 3 most over-qualified DDs. And leave the other 27 least qualified to wait. <— This is TODAY.

Lets distribute that better shall we? How? How do you end up without 27 people waiting on the list?

I addressed your analogy already. Which has a fundamental flaw in it:

• You double the rate at which you form groups, you double the groups being formed. That is your “Picking up kids analogy” is the time it takes to complete a dungeon.

You cannot make a 40 min dungeon run faster than it already does.

So. The question is: How many keys are available PER HOUR at any given moment? This is FIXED. Each key take 40 minutes and it cant “ferrari” it’s way to taking 20 minutes instead.

The only way to increase the rate at which DDs wait in line is to make the Nissan car (which takes 30 minutes and can take 3 kids) bigger. So now it can take 4 kinds instead. That’s the ONLY way.

And if you dont make the dungeons run faster, you will have a zero sum game of needing 3 DDs and forcing other 27 to wait. Per hour.

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Uda-uldum

So. The question is: How many keys are available PER HOUR at any given moment? This is FIXED. Each key take 40 minutes and it cant “ferrari” it’s way to taking 20 minutes instead.

The time saved doesn’t come from running the dungeon faster but from making the group quicker.

Same in other games.

[Gloober-aszune]

I member that I’m sure I bring up a bus then it leads to me comparing something to selling salt water to creatures that live in salt water.

Whose memories are these?

Tons of people don’t have a burden getting groups going though. I’m currently only aiming for 4 +10 per week completed and I have already done 2 yesterday. So I’m already half way there.

As you can see I still have some keys at +6.

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Gloober-aszune

Tons of people don’t have a burden getting groups going though.

Those people can still manually create their own groups.

Again, same as in other games.

[Restomancer-silvermoon]

@Heramaar-argent-dawn

Solo Shuffe has a massive problem with Healers not queueing.

So did LFR, once it was introduced in WoTLK. It is a nightmare, it will be a nightmare.

I mean, if it is ever happening, I’d say alright as long as limited to low keys. I am not PUGging my +12 and above from LFR. No way.

[Gloober-aszune]

@Jito-turalyon

Those people can still manually create their own groups.

Again, same as in other games.

Then who is this for?

It’s like making a guitar course for people who hate guitar and don’t want to ever learn it.

[Uda-uldum]

@Jito-turalyon

The time saved doesn’t come from running the dungeon faster but from making the group quicker.

Same in other games.

FIRST:

If you have 10 keys available PER HOUR. You cant increase this number. You cant have more keys. How many DDs can you place in those 10 keys? The answer is 30.

If you got 100 in the quew that want to play, in that hour… How many will wait. Per hour?

Say you take one hour to form said 10 keys. Lets speed this up. Lets “ferrari” this to taking only 30 minutes to form the group. OK.

Now you got 10 keys for 30 minutes. And 0 keys for the following 30 minutes until those 10 keys are completed. Only when those 10 keys are completed, can they go back to the list and new groups can be formed. Either way, the average is still 10 keys/hour, and you still need 30 DDs/Hour. Everyone else will have to wait for 1 hour.

Its an extreme example. But it’s what would happen.

SECOND:

You know what your “ferrari” to making groups is? Healers and Tanks. You wait for ages for a group as a DD because you need the Healers and Tanks which are in short supply.

So even IF you were correct… you basically need a Driver + a Copilot in that Nissan for it to even begin doing the trip.

And you can change the car to a Ferrari if you want. But you STILL need a driver and a copilot. With out them, you cant begin the trip either.

Where will you get a driver and a copilot to drive your “ferrari”?

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Gloober-aszune

Then who is this for?

The broader playerbase. Gamers in general. Like I said, the trend in gaming is that people want to get in on the action quickly, they don’t want to spend time forming groups.

Same in other games. Automated queue systems are popular for a reason. That reason.

And speaking of other games, there’s Silksong in a few hours.

So excited!!!

And wasn’t I supposed to leave this discussion? Right.

[Lynlia-silvermoon]

@Jito-turalyon

Same in other games. Automated queue systems are popular for a reason. That reason.

Are popular in game modes which can support it.

Not sure why you have such a hard time understanding that soloQ is not some miracle cure which can be slapped to everything and everywhere and will work 100% of the times.

[Dejarous-draenor (Dejarous)]

@Lynlia-silvermoon

Not sure why you have such a hard time understanding that soloQ is not some miracle cure which can be slapped to everything and everywhere and will work 100% of the times

But the trends in other games! AI! /waves arms

[Uda-uldum]

@Jito-turalyon

And speaking of other games, there’s Silksong in a few hours.

Do you recommend this?

I would appreciate a small recommendation from your side. To know if its worth it or not to try it out.

I dont trust reviews and trailers. But I do trust your word.

[Gloober-aszune]

@Jito-turalyon

The broader playerbase. Gamers in general. Like I said, the trend in gaming is that people want to get in on the action quickly, they don’t want to spend time forming groups.

The people currently tanking and healing are “gamers in general” it’s not like I’m some specially trained expert being sent into keys to tank for the masses.

I too am hyped for Silksong.

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Lynlia-silvermoon

Are popular in game modes which can support.

WoW is not an enigma. It can also support it.

@Lynlia-silvermoon

Not sure why you have such a hard time understanding that soloQ is not some miracle cure which can be slapped to everything and everywhere and will work 100% of the times.

I’m not arguing it’s a miracle. I’m arguing it’s the most likely design solution Blizzard will end up implementing for the reasons I’ve outlined.

I’m just making a prediction and arguing my confidence in that prediction.

I’m not saying it’ll be the second coming of the Messiah. Or that it’ll fix all problems and turn everything into sunshine and rainbows.
I’m simply saying that Blizzard have a history of steering their games in this kind of direction and that the design principles they are guided by would lend them naturally to this kind of solution.

@Uda-uldum

Do you recommend this?

Hollow Knight is in my list of top games of all time. It’s a must play game in my experience and a strong recommendation.
If you play that you’ll have your own feelings about Silksong.
But I wouldn’t play Silksong if I hadn’t played Hollow Knight.

[Noboop-silvermoon]

@Heramaar-argent-dawn

current surveys hint at changes regarding the Dungeon Group (Finder) Systems being considered.

they seem to have an ai for making questions and sending them out for surveys to people .i have not seen any meaningful survey lately that might make the game better for people.

[Uda-uldum]

@Jito-turalyon

Hollow Knight is in my list of top games of all time. It’s a must play game in my experience and a strong recommendation.
If you play that you’ll have your own feelings about Silksong.
But I wouldn’t play Silksong if I hadn’t played Hollow Knight.

I guess il have to try those out.

Im getting a bit bored of Darktide. Its funny. But the Matchmaking of higher difficulties means I end up loosing 9/10 matches I play. And I get bored of dying after some point.

I always get teamed up with dumb monkeys, or impossibly bad comps.

So I need something to do while I wait for my buddies to come online.

[Lynlia-silvermoon]

@Jito-turalyon

WoW is not an enigma. It can also support it.

And it supports it where it can.
The entirety of WoW does not consist of just m+ you know…