Oh sure. There will be meta slaves same as pug raid leaders demanding Curve for a normal raid.
But most +10s/+11s Ive seen, people just want a balanced mele/ranged ratio and a hero and cr.
2 Likes
I think this would be the least issue with M+ solo queue, it’s very easy to implement.
Not Solo Queue
Players have made the conclusion that this survey indicates that Blizzard may be looking into Solo Queue. I believe this survey indicates the opposite as even the first bullet shows that Blizzard wants delineation in having a group leader and players who are choosing to join a group. Solo Queue which is just pure random matchmaking along a skill ranking does not have a dedicated “leader” still.
Solo Queue would likely run into the issue where Tanks and Healers wouldn’t use it at all. Since these roles are the ones in demand, they would have the ability to choose their exact group. Why would they rely on random matchmaking? This would make the only people incentivized to use solo queue would be DPS and queue times would take a long time.
It’s not something I’d use myself and it will be a disaster if they do implement it. We see a huge number of complaints about solo queue for PvP and the same problems would exist. Healers and Tanks wont want to use it in significant numbers as they can do better in listed keys. So really it’s going to be a huge long queue of Dps.
Like you do now. Who sais all of the played keys are finished?
In fact, the less agency you have in choosing the right team-mates the more probable it is of not completing it at all.
Or you maybe you do finish it. But it’s a long and arduous wipefest… That becomes more likely too if you dont have agency on who you play with.
No. I assume nothing. It can be a bad class. A bad comp. Or a bad player. Or all 3 at the same time. Or just 2.
Dosent matter. There will always be 1 person like that.
But that is not my point, you are going sideways. Let me put it some other way.
How many matches did it take you to reach 2.1k with a healer? With your skill, you would have taken half the matches and gotten your rewards faster with a DD.
It dosent matter if its more annoying and less fun. Fact is that you are guaranteed to win 50. Loose 50. MINIMUM. That is assuming you are at your max MMR. If you are lower than your max MMR then you will win more. But it only takes 1 or 2 losses to put you back to where you belong.
But basically. There is no “tie”.
Unlike in Solo. You can TIE. And healers often do because of the problems mentioned above with that 1 guy that always dies.
EHHH… NO. Its the same dungeon yes. But there is quite a difference between a +2 and a +10. In particular: Affixes and 84% more damage/HP.
Things that kill you in a +10 dont kill you in a +2. The DPS requirements are much lower as well. So no. The chances are not higher. If you quew to a +10, its the same +10 for any group.
But you do have a point none the less. The quality of the group matters on the chances of success. YES, if the correct route is taken, if they CC, kick and so on it increases the chances of success.
And that is why people are more picky with who they invite. Especially DDs, who are a dime a dozen. <— Which is the crux of the problem.
What level are we talking about here? Stop yaping about a meta because its irrelevant.
There is no chance of doing high keys with a SoloQ. FORGET IT. We can argue about low level keys if you want. But not high keys.
As a healer or tank? Ridiculous.
If you got 1000 Rio and you are applying to +12s then yes. You will get rejected. But if you apply to Rio appropriate keys you get instantly invited.
That is for low keys. For high keys, forget it.
To begin with, there are extremely few people playing those keys to begin with. People that dont even post their key in the LFG tool, because keys become so hard that Rio and “meta spec” is not even a reliable metric to measure quality.
People at those levels simply invite friends from the friend list. Or people that are vetted by others they know. That is their version of “pugging”.
High keys are another beast my friend. Automated quews will not solve that. Like I said above. In fact, LFG is not even the right tool for that.
Tell your friend to network if he wants to push keys. That’s the only way. Plus. You are not telling me the whole story. What is his Rio? His ilvl? ect…
Its not the same to quew for a +13 if you have only timed +12s and some are in +11. Or… if you are an individual that has 6/8 in +13 and you are just missing those 2 for your Resilient key. Its not the same.
And your friend probably waited for so long because there are a LOT of people sitting on 6/8.
PLUS: Resto Druids are very popular in high keys. They got the best HPS at the moment, and MotW. So half the groups already have a Druid. Why would they take a 2nd one?
This has nothing to do with meta by the way… Technically, RShaman is meta at the moment.
Again. Please, look at the Raider IO data.
You know what is the most popular spec at the moment (in keys 1-10)? Rets. YES. Rets. And they are not meta.
What are you talking about?
Again with the meta… Do you play your own keys? Seriously…
You post your key. Especially like I do, with me (healer) and my tank buddy. All we need are 3 DDs.
Instantly we have 50 applicants. All of which have high rio. High ilvl. So I will obviously choose those the 3 that match better with my comp. Because class now becomes a factor. And its a +12 mind you!
And all this “bring the player not the class”… if you disagree with the way Blizzard does thing, fair enough… tell Blizzard to balance out classes differently. Not a SoloQ.
I repeat. The right comp can give you 10% to 15% more performance than the wrong comp. 10% is a LOT. Its not “nothing”. And that is just raid buffs!!!
A SoloQ would slap random people with random raid buffs and you could be anywhere between 0% or 15% stronger. Depending on what the computer chose.
NO.
Here is the deal. High keys require organization. Teamwork. Require skill. And to do that, you need to network. To coordinate yourself with team-mates… ect…
You need to put the work. Network. Run your keys. Build your premade.
But no. You want Daddy Blizzard to do it for you. Well no. Its not gonna work. Sorry.
Who cares how long they were in the quew.
Havent you heard? Matter cannot be created nor destroyed. Its a zero sum game. A mass balance. Energy conservation…
If you only have 3M tanks. You can only run 3M keys. PERIOD.
It dosent matter if you took 1h waiting. Or 5 minutes waiting. Fact is that there are more than 9M DDs… who cares how many more?
And who are you? Do I know you? Do the key holders know you personally? How can they be sure that you can easily do 10s with that gear? Do you have some certificate somewhere?
All they see is Rio (which was super low) and an ilvl that is low even for S2 standards. That’s IT.
With that information, and not knowing anything else about you. What would your perception be?
Try applying for 2s. Get some veteran gear first.
if its not solo que then its waste of time
only solo que woudl incentivise players for signing else they will still be getting constant declines.
I don’t favour rewarding leaders either, means we’d be listing groups and getting our group to sign up for it. Just to get the rewards. Seems daft.
Based on your experiences with Premade Group Finder Dungeon groups, how interested would you be in each of the following changes to Premade Group Finder.
Group Finder can automatically form a group for you based on criteria you set as a group leader.
Group leaders’ key is “Resilient” (i.e. protected from depletion) for the first group they lead each week.
Group leaders received additional Crests after completion of the dungeon.
Group leaders receive additional Valorstones after completion of the dungeon.
Group Finder will recommend players with a similar skill level to you as a group leader.
Group Finder will recommend players with similar playstyles or goals to you as a group leader.
1 Like
There will always be entitled people that beleive that things should be handed to them.
Build rio and gear slowly and progress through the ladder? NAH… i want daddy blizzard to force people to carry me to a +12 in a single day.
Well… they can do it if they so wish. It just costs some Gs to do. But for free? NOPE. You gotta atleast put some Gs in.
Since you like to give constructive feedback, I will give mine here:
I think this is a bad idea. People will simply put: 3000 Rio and 710 min ilvl as a requirement. Funny thing is that, in the case of DDs, they will probably fill that group with those individuals. For a +10. So everyone else will be left in the quew regardless.
What I would like is additional filters.
So for example, if you want a Ret you toggle that option. That way, other people will not see the group and apply for groups that will 100% wont take them.
Im not sure this accomplishes anything. What I would like to see is being able to buy key upgrades and rerolls with crests.
I get what they want to achieve: To incentivize people to actually run their own keys. But this is not the way.
Who cares about crests? In a month we will all be maxed out on ilvl. Crests will become irrelevant. We need something to buy with said crests. Like key upgrades, like terciary stat enchants, ect…
THEN we can discuss if this is a good incentive or not.
This is BS. What is “similar skill level” mean? Similar Rio? We can already see that.
And if its measured a different way, what way?
I find this ridiculous. Things that can be solved by writing things in the /party should not be automated.
We should not reward a-social golums to play in GROUP content in a MULTIPLAYER game. If people refuse to communicate, they can go play Delves.
Incentivise whom? Healers and tanks who can cherry pick their own groups and get insta invite in manual grouping?
DPS will still wait in endless queue for a run where there is even no promise of a succesful run? The system fixes nothing and helps nobody.
Creating soloq is the same as building a seaport…in the middle of dry plains without a body of traversable water in 50 km radius…but then proudly pounding your chest “look! I built something!”.
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thats because building up score is boring .
its natural that majority of normal people want to play to get gear - not play to get score.
Why even play at all then? Crafted gear is so good just wait until the end of the season and craft near max level gear in one day.
crafted gear still requires crests.
Yeah. So instead we should switch to “pinky promises” to judge how good someone is.
I know, I’m a master crafter. I also know the crest cap is gone by the end of the season.
Also use your own key if you don’t want to build score to get invited.
But that’s the thing tho, we already have issues and introducing a new system does not mean it fails because of something that already exists.
We can not only introduce systems that are perfect and flawless, those don’t exist.
I’d say right now it’s much easier to boost someone than with a solo queue, which means if the system is actually able to have people on similar skill level it’s a better experience for everyone.
I actually did play MW, Rdruid, Hunter and Rogue. The fastest 2,1k was with MW.
It’s kinda hard to measure because when I played solo shuffle Blizzard was trying to adjust MMR and gains in general.
I’d say this is the most important factor.
If someone is just annoying and now fun and offers no incentives, it will die out, just like PvP is pretty much on life support. It’s much more less played than in Shadowlands, where rating and ilvl mattered and people claimed it was bad. Now we have all this equal gear that people requested and playing “for fun” and solo shuffle and solo rbg and somehow have less PvP participation? Something is very off.
How?
Well depends how exactly you define a tie. Because even tho going 3:3 you still move backwards or forwards so the tie is kinda an illusion.
Sure but what makes the dungeon hard is not it being +2 or +10 but the people you play with. That’s why I said the real difficulty is not made by the dungeon itself but by the players themselves.
Like I can heal a +10 on my 670 resto shaman but I also did not time a +2 lol^^ it had nothing to do with the dungeon difficulty but with the players.
Ye but most people, especially in lower keys (or all the way up to 12 even) are not good in making the right decisions. Partially it’s their own fault, partially because we don’t have anything that truly shows someone skill.
Let’s say you have a group of 4 people and you already covered everything you kinda need. Now you have a 3k rio 710 frost DK queued (who is basically boosted, sba player, knows barely any mechanics and just got lucky) and a shadow priest with 3k rio and 710 ilvl, who was r1 player in PvP for over 10 years every season, knows all the mechanics in PvE, parses 100% for over 10 years in every content and every dungeon.
Without further research you just don’t know who is who and would actually tend to invite the DK. An automated system could/would match the better player for your group tho.
Well I wish meta was irrelevant but it’s absolutely out of question that most people, especially the less experienced ones, are blindly following tier lists and will invite the S tier specs. That’s been a fact for pretty much… always.
Depends how we define high. Right now if it was in place, I am 100% sure you could time at least 14s with solo queue. Maybe even higher. We can just guess.
Na on my MW I barely get in groups for 12s already and 0 chance to get into 13s.
On my Rshaman I needed yesterday around 10-15 minutes to get an invite, that’s on average. And that’s for a +6. My shaman is connected to this Druid.
But the issue obviously appears more in higher keys on off-meta-specs. It was always like that.
Depends what is high for you. There are plenty 12-14s (and higher) keys every day in queue.
As I said, the goal is not always perfection. It’s about giving additional options.
As long as there is no valid reason, that somehow harms the majority, I don’t see why we should not have it. But I am 100% sure we will get in some form anyway. There is no way around it.
He doesn’t want to network and I understand it.
He had 3,8k last season on Brewmaster. He is still playing it, is 711 ilvl and 3,4k rio right now.
You misread what I wrote. He didn’t queue for anything, he was looking for a dps for his +13. They were already 4 people and looking for over 27 minutes at the moment when I took the screenshot. Unfortunately I deleted it yesterday.
Idk what you are trying to say with that. They were looking for a druid. What second one? They wanted one lol
Yes, it is. But I am not sure what’s your point here.
I am talking about player, not the class. You talk about class and class only.
Let’s take a look at only 10s. Ret is just always been a popular class and after rework always a very easy one to play. But despite that the meta, which is frost DK, is still more represented. And even tho we don’t know who pugs and who does not, since the data is not showing that in an abstract version, it’s clear to say that meta specs are MUCH MORE represented than the off-meta specs.
This goes for healers and dps VERY clearly.
Just because ret is the only non real meta spec but still picked a lot, it does not change the reality for every other spec. Ret is basically what BM was back in the days, reliable easy dps that can be played by every noob. That’s where the representation comes from.
Besides the fact that this not always work, if you want to finish every dungeon for resi keys for example. There are still people who might be decent at their spec but they don’t join the group because they want the easy meta way. And by the time you finished checking the people if they are good enough, they leave the queue, especially the good players.
I get all this theory you are talking about, it’s just all not so easy in reality.
Which absolutely says nothing, especially in this range 
man how many SBA players I had ruining my run… that’s not even fun.
It does not tho. I timed 12s with completely random comps like DH, Rdruid, Evoker, Sub Rogue and Mage lol…
Or with friends, half naked shadow priest and warlock who barely know the game and got coached mid dungeon on the way.
That’s the whole point tho, for the key ranges 99% of people playing the classes are balanced well enough. But people are just too blind to see it.
I mean look at you. You have decent experience and you play a meta spec and even you believe you need a certain comp and specific classes on a +12 meanwhile all you need is bloodlust. You don’t even really need a BR even tho it’s very easy to have in the group nowadays anyway.
15% from 0 is still 0
That’s why I say player before class.
Again, nobody is asking for perfection. This sweat is not important in most situations for over 99% of players.
BL and maybe BR is all you need and you are good to go. And the automated system can still be adjusted in certain ways, it’s not like it’s completely random, messed up and has zero thoughts behind it. You just assumed like the worst possible design. And us all knowing Blizzard I do understand your pessimism.
Why no? Why do you want to force people to play a certain way? What do you have from it?
As I said, I have a friend who is pugging on a very high level. He factually proves wrong what you think is a requirement.
https://imgur.com/zE8dXUg
https://imgur.com/wYWnj0u
I am for freedom of choice, as long as it does not harm the majority. I don’t see any valid reason to force someone to play the way you think is the right way, especially when it does not affect you at all.
This is a very, very, very important factor.
Ye… no. I highly disagree with that
See and that’s exactly the problem and the automated system WILL know BETTER. That’s the point 
That’s why I am for the solo queue because it has more information and will make better decisions than the players.
I have the appropriate gear for the content I queue for. I know it. The automated system would know it. But the players don’t comprehend it. It’s like facts vs feelings. The system doesn’t care what ilvl I have, as long as it’s a fact that I can time specific content. But the players feel like I am not ready even tho in reality they are being wrong.
Anyone who thinks solo queue won’t be popular is delusional. You only need to look at LFD/LFR/Solo Shuffle/Blitz to realize it will be insanely popular. You don’t even have to go outside WoW.
I don’t queue for those so I don’t know. I do know there are a lot of rets applying to my keys, as much as any fotm class. If people can play what they want and get a group they will gravitate towards the wheelchair spec.
Blizzard had to remove tanks from Solo Shuffle. That’s like removing the drugs and alcohol from a party. The queues are also allegedly huge.
Plus LFD/LFR are for a different audience, in the same way a massive kegger attracts a different audience than a senior’s knitting club.
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Ever heard “dont change a working system” before?
Im not talking about introducing a flawless system. I am talking about introducing a worse system.
First: Who said anything about boosting people? I am talking about having 5 people that are over-skilled and over-geared for the +10 they are doing for the vault. Or the +8 to farm some specific hero piece.
If you plan on getting 5 people with just the right gear, and just the right skill… I doubt you would call that “a better experience”…
Second: Define “skill level”. That is the problem. Its really difficult to define. Even MMR is not a good measure of skill and you know it.
SoloQ is what is off. The PvP community got split. SoloQ you give in to RNG on who you are matched with. And regular arenas dont have enough players to support it.
So they both die.
In an arena? Either the opposing team kills you and you die. Or you kill them and they win. If you are at your “ideal skill level” MMRwise, you will win/loose 50/50. You know this.
So on the long run, you will be at a MINIMUM in a situation where you are 50/50. Point is, you cannot tie. And you cant loose for ever. Eventually you will drop in MMR such that you get matched up with similar skill level players. Which means 50/50 win rate.
In M+ it’s different. Because you cannot loose RIO. Eventually you reach a point in which you loose all the time. And players try to push that limit with whatever advantage they can.
The quality of your teammates is the most important one. Hence, why people are picky.
And you think that is normal? Either way. A tie for a healer means the match is pre-determined. There is nothing you can do to improve it.
Sure… il buy into your hypothesis.
So. Do you think its a good idea for a computer to match you with anybody? Or maybe you think it would be a better idea to pick high rio, high ilvl players for your 2+?
Or better. Those people in your 2+… how far do you think they would have gotten with out you? With a healer with similar skill to them. Would it have been a good experience for them?
Here is the deal. You put your key.
And you give me 2 players. A DK ith 3k rio. And a Priest with 3k rio for your +12. Sure. We can argue who is better or who is boosted. But you forget a big factor here:
FIRST important thing: In that same list, you have 48 other DDs. Each have ~2.8k rio. In other words, 11s 12s. In that range.
One could say its “their appropriate level”. But they wont get picked. Because guess what? They too could be boosted to that Rio. You dont know that. But you prefer to take your chances with the 3k rio dude, than with the 2.8k rio dude.
SECOND important thing: Whatever decision you take. The good one. Or the bad one. High Rio, or low Rio… There are STILL 47 DDs in the quew. None of those get to go to a key.
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-tww-2/all/world/leaderboards
S2 data (cause S3 is too early still). MOST popular specs overall (which basically means +10s and +12s)… Ret Palas (NOT meta)… Look at all other non-meta specs (such as hunters, HDH, Rogues… ect…)…
Where is this meta you are yaping about?
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-tww-2/all/world/leaderboards#role=all:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=15:maxMythicLevel=99:chartMode=by-class
15+ and up. Ret pala is STILL the most popular. NOT meta. And a good representation of everyone else.
Again. WHAT meta… you have to get to ridiculously high key levels to even see it. Like title level key levels… which if you might remember represent 0.1% of the playerbase.
You cant say “I did not time a 2+ because of the people I played” while simultaneously claiming you can time a +14 with soloQ.
YES. You could time a +14 with soloQ. IF the system chooses only the gigachads for you instead of everyone else. If you choose random people (like in your 2+) you will get the same results as in your 2+.
Link to your MW. I want to see its Rio because I dont beleive you. You are either naked, or have super low rio. Its not possible you dont get invited to a +12.
Run your own key then.
https://raider.io/stats/mythic-plus-runs?season=season-tww-3&groupBy=mythic_level
You can see the data yourself instead of inventing it. The answer is NO. There is not “a lot” of people at those key levels.
https://raider.io/mythic-plus/cutoffs/season-tww-3/eu
1% of the toons to be precise (those that have 2800 rating or more which is ~ 12s). +15s? That’s 0.1%. NOBODY.
Well then add improvements to the current LFG system then. Like no depletes, or better rewards or whatever.
Work on what you have. Not on some new, parallel system which has been done 3 times already, and failed 3 times.
Good for him. So then he knows what needs to be done. So he should stop whining.
I got no contempt for people that play such high key levels. Its hard, its complicated. If he decides to shoot himself in the foot then great. He can do that.
Plus. I checked all 15 BM in EU… and they all have a premade.
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-character-rankings/season-tww-2/eu/monk/tank
So who is your friend?
He took 27 minutes to fill in 1 DPS spot? That is unbelievable. I mean, arent we having a whole discussion about DDs that wait for too long for an invite, even in high keys? Seems to me like there is nobody with that issue.
Something was wrong. Im 100% sure. At what time was he playing? 4am in the morning?
No. Dont try to squigle your way out of the raw, pure data.
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-tww-3/all/world/leaderboards
6.1% rets. 5.8% DKs. There is no discussions here. Its a FACT.
Rets are easy? Or hard? Dont care. All I care is that they are not meta, and are the most represented spec.
That is not what I ment. What I ment is that whatever metric you choose to measure other people by, it dosent change the fact that you need 3 DDs and have 50 in the quew.
Imagine for a second that we ALL started to play meta. Off meta specs dont exist anymore.
Well you would STILL have the same problem: you need 3 META DDs, and have 50 META DDs in the quew. 47 META DDs wont get to play.
It dosent? Well invite people at random to your key. Go ahead.
Lets see how that goes.
I never said it was not possible. I only said that you will do it with a 10% disadvantage. Are you skilled enough to overcome that disadvantage? Maybe.
But if you are not?
I play RShaman since BFA. Meta or not. Dont forget that.
And I never said you cant time a +12 with a off-sinc comp. You absolutely can. But 10% more damage is significant.
Are we talking about high keys (+12 and higher) or not? You better do more than 0 DPS on that key you know … Again you are confusing the symptom with the disease.
So no. Its not 0.
Force? NO!! The highest difficulty group activities require that. In any game. Even in RL.
A game is no different than a restaurant for example. You want to run a 3 star Michelin restaurant you better coordinate with your team to perfection. And know the suppliers by name. That is what needs to be done if you want to be in the top 0.1% of restaurants.
HAHAHA… and how? AI let me guess… 
Nah… forget it. If it was possible, they would have done it for PvP already, and in may other games. And yet, all they can do is compare 2 numbers (MMR).
Prove it. Give me 1 game with a matchmaking system that considers more than just an MMR number.
I’m going to put this through an AI voice generator to read it to me … in an American Italian gangster voice!