S1 progression system for M+ has been a disaster

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
41

I did up to +26 in DF with a BM hunter. But yeah that hunter plays for M+ and likes to respec survival when it suits the group better. And now we just run +12’s. Allthough i am pretty sure we would do the same when he was BM.

You compare cooldowns of knockups (which isnt a stun). but somehow you do not want to compare cooldowns of feigh death and bulwark totem. And ignoring feigh death can completely ignore a mechanic.

Hunter does not only have feign death. Misdirect is very usefull with bursty dps in groups, or help setting up/chain pulls). Sooth is very nice (enforcerers in grim batol, for example). Frost trap has very nice usages too (mage on 2nd boss necrotic wake, for example or skipping that pack in Mists before the first boss). You can do pet pulls in the mists-maze.

Look a little bit further at your class.

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42

Analogies rarely ever work. Don’t even try.

As Mythic-raids require a setup of 20 players as opposed to a variable group-size in heroic…there are more factors at play. And yes, especially raid teams < 20 can consider it an exclusion-factor.

Otherwise if the difficulty gap is high enough it can feel as such as well.

I mean, it’s a game. Nobody cares about factual exclusions. It’s all about the feeling of being able to progress. And once you’re stuck, you can feel excluded. And we know all the way from before the season started that the vast majority will never touch 10s (esp with the squish), so yeah, it’s something to consider.

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43

Dont even run misdirect these days. Tanks have no issues with aggro, least of all the paladin meta tank who does as much damage as an dps almost.

Only tanks ive run into aggro issues on is badly geared tanks. LIke when my i622 paladin dps on a run where a 604 druid was tanking. I pulled aggro alot.

But that is to be expected when ilvl disparity is so high. Its rare to have that big an ilvl disparity.

Things have changed ALOT since DF. Mythics are super punishing these days, and very few runs are being completed compared to DF. People are super picky and careful compared to DF. Since its so punishing to fail.

And the quest for meta groups become even stronger when its so punishing.

And if a BM hunter wants to have bloodlust as shaman already has. He has to give up 5% health, and a defensive cooldown. Awesome.

The value of feign death increases with the higher keys. But im not interested in that at all. I just want vaults and crests. I have no interest at all beyond 10.

I play this game to raid, that is all. I might dabble with some arena and pvp on the side. But raiding is the bread and butter of this game for me. Raiding is the thing that keeps me motivated, the thing that drives me.

I have absolutely no interest of RIO, pushing hard keys etc. I just want to progress so i can raid. Thats it.

Yes, wow skipping a pack. Wow. If you want to skip a pack on MoT you bring a warlock and have much higher dps. My 613 demo lock can pull as much dps as 622 BM hunter in M+.

I have all classes but Evoker,Monk and DH at 80 atm. I play them all to a degree (Some more than others)

But nothing is as unwanted as my BM hunter. It has to be tried to be believed.

I challenge you, get a BM hunter. Try get it upto speed in pugs. And come back to me.

Cause i swear, it will be the worst experience in this game ever. And ive played since launch. Ive had many terrible experiences!

44

For starters, this is my suggestion:

  • The 6 tokens you get as “consolation prize” at the vault should allow you to upgrade 1 item category. In the case of Myth Track, that would be from Hero to Myth.

What that means is that Delvers, Heroic Raiders and M+ players would get 1 Myth track upgrade per week guaranteed (assuming they looted a Hero Track peice to begin with). Which means that it would take 14 weeks (3.5 months) to be fully geared.

With that said, the hardest difficulties in WoW at the moment are Mythic Raids and high keys (>12+). Raiders get a compensation for their troubles via loot drops. M+ pushers do not.

  • So you put M+ Myth track drops on a +15 or something like that.

And you got a fair and abalanced gear progression. Where if your good enough, you get gear faster. And everyone else has a slow, but guaranteed ilvl increase.

Acheives everything.

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45

Everything you describe is for real not a problem up to +10.

Sounds like a fun christmas experiment. My hunter is lvl 4 though, so i suppose it isn’t going to happen. But anyway i have at least done +11’s with BM hunters.

Something like this;
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-runs/season-tww-1/14419240-11-mists-of-tirna-scithe
It were 3 pug dps, so no clue who they are.

46

Try something different and stop complaining :smiley: That is what I have seen you tell 20 other people. Make some friends to push 12’s.

47

I didnt complain, i merely stated how the current system plays out.

How about you learn to read?

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48

No one was talking about raid sizes. Don’t use strawman arguments, they rarely ever work.

Now that is what I wanted to read. They areunable to clear the Mythic content, that means that they are excluding themselves from mythic gearing. Not the game’s fault.

I don’t operate by feelings, so you could be right about that /shrug

There’s nothing to consider. You are doing +7s, your end of gear progression is 619. You are doing +8 and +9, now it is 626. You are clearing +10, your end will be 639.

49

it will never really be fair.
+15 are for people that can play 10h a day, it is quite impossible for people that play a healthy amount of time.
+12 would be fairer as it is also a fair jump in difficulty

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50

Neither is Mythic Raiding. Its not something for people that can play a healthy amount of time.

Here is the thing. If you provide myth track gear from the vault every week, everyone will gear up in 3.5 months. Which means that the “average” key level will increase over time. Because giving people more gear is equivalent to nerfing the content.

That is why a +12 is too low. A 15+ is maybe too high. Somewhere in between would be right. To me the sweet-spot is something along these lines:

  • A level that cannot be acheived the 1st week of a patch
  • A level that the “pros” acheive 3 to 4 weeks into the patch
  • A level that everyone else (with some myth track gear) can aspire to achieve in ~ 2 to 2.5 months into a patch

Your personal skill level will determine how fast you get there. And if your personal skill level is insufficient to get there, dont worry. In 3.5 months you will 100% be fully geared like everyone else.

51

if thats your goal than you have to add that only timed runs will drop loot because otherwise people will somehow manage to clear a +15.

right now there are very few people who even clear 15s and most of those are premades.
we dont need to gate gear so hard, after all you still need to farm a metric ton of crests and you still have to farm the gear in the first place, especially in dungeons like grim batol with a lootpool of 12 items or so.

i rather we would just delete myth gear all together.
myth raiding is dumb and vault is also a dumb system. Both of which nobody needs.

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52

We can both agree on that. I would simply time-gate guaranteed loot. Everyone gets max level in 3.5 months, DONE.

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53

i guess most people like the buillion system except blizzard lol

54

For me, the bullion system for raid items is an absolute requirement IF blizzard keeps insisting on having “special” items drop on raids.

And I find that they are creating their own problems here. On the one hand, they want to make Raid items “special”. Which makes sense. But on the other, if they do it then everyone else starts complaining because either it never drops, when it does someone else gets it, or simply its unattainable unless you raid. And they cant give equivalent “cool” items in M+ cause then people would farm those.

So they try to find some balance every season and every season the mess it up.

Simplest solution is to simply make super special items with cool effects in both raid and M+ and have some bullion system in place. DONE.

Everyone that complains about time-gating gear in the forums I will make sure to quickly reply and educate them on much worse are the alternatives. :slight_smile:

55

i assume they dont do that because they want to force them to raid.
they could do it with buillions too but everyone would hate them. lfr is something most people can stomach to get them, but if you would force people to raid normal it would be a mess because people will leave as soon as something drops.

i dont really understand what they are trying to achieve but at least this time the trinkets are not complete trash from m+ and there are no crazy weapons from raid but probably going to change next season again

56

For me is a no brainer. If you do the relevant content you have a chance of a drop. So raiders could get 2 or more “cool items” every 2/3 weeks. Everyone else gets only 1. This on its own is a massive advantage.

If we follow the bullion formula, raiders have a chance to get 1 cool weapon + 2 cool trinkets literally the 1st week of a raid. Everyone else would have to wait 6 weeks (1 bulion/2 weeks) to get the BiS weapon + Trinkets.

Its a fair exchange IMO.

57

What exactly do you need more gear for? You dont raid, you dont push m+. Just to look shiny in dornogal? I also cant get no gear anymore. And I still play because I LIKE TO PLAY THE GAME.

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58

its to complete your char.

i also dont need gear anymore or upgrade it as i finished ksh and got all portals already. still pushing my gear makes it easier next season from the get go for aure

59

This is where the problem is i only play wow for mythic + but atm i am a healer i feel as a healer i have to do everything and the tanks are running like a mad men, and the dps are in paradise city swinging their swords, axe, staffs and having a blast. Really i played dps in m+ they have the most easier role of evrything. As a healer its hell its NOT FUN. So i unsubbed last week because yes u need to play for fun but playing = rewards = Fun.

60

When prices are high enough, people are excluded from Disneyland. That’s how it works with M+ now as well.

Right now, the system doesn’t work for a lot of players. For many, completing a +10 dungeon is very challenging, which makes groups very selective when inviting players. Having a 626 item level is not a guaranteed spot for a +10. So, the first challenge for many players is simply getting into a group and that has nothing to do with skill.

I don’t enjoy running +10s, but I do them for the Mythic vault slot. I was lucky enough to get carried a few times, which helped me gain enough ILVL and rating to get invited to pug groups, even though I’m not a very skilled player. Right now, pugging M+ feels like it’s all about bringing the “right” class and having enough ILVL, and that, in my opinion, is not the way it should work.

Having vault rewards from +8 would be a great change for many players who are hitting a wall right now. Vault rewards are weekly, so we’re only talking about one Mythic item per week. It still takes at least three months of lucky vault drops to get best-in-slot gear (including items and sockets).

It’s a shame to see Blizzard listening to the mentality of a small minority this season—players who feel good about themselves because they have better gear and access to content that excludes others. This “I win because you lose” mentality is not sustainable. That’s why I believe Blizzard will eventually return to the winning formula we had in Dragonflight. After almost a 15 year break i came back to the game (s3). It was far better then what i experienced in the early days of wow.

At last, I want to add that I still strongly believe the Challenger’s Pearl is the root of everything that is wrong with WoW right now and should be removed immediately. This affix is all about punishing players and creating tension within the community.

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