Sexism, ANTI-LGBTQ+ and Skin-Based Racism has no place in RP in 2021

I know that Blizzard writing has been abysmal for some time now but if we cherry pick which parts of the story are good enough to be considered canon then there’s no point in discussing anything because it all becomes subjective. This isn’t againts you, specifically.

I agree that Calia and Tess might have simply been forgotten by the writers but the thing is, we don’t know. They never came out and said “Yeah, we forgot. Sorry.” like when they admitted to ducking up the characterization of Garrosh so for all we know those two women were sidelined due to in-game sexism instead of out-of-game incompetence.

You could be right. I have to admit I’m not sure where exactly gender roles stop and sexism begins. When in real life we talk about women’s role traditionally having been that of a housekeeper and child factory in the past, we tend to classify those times as sexist and those roles as sexist.

At the same time they were also gender roles that originally came to be due to biological differences between the sexes but were taken to the extreme due to an ever-growing and self-perpetuating power imbalance.

Though being excluded from certain roles (priesthood for men, druidism for women) doesn’t seem that particularly bad and is rooted more in tradition than power play, I would argue that it’s still degrading and sexist.

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It’s worth noting just how much Magni’s blatant sexism as depicted in older lore is greatly contradicted by the Speaker comic, which gives us the greatest insight into their relationship to date. Their rift wasn’t formed because Magni didn’t think women could rule as well as men, but because he forced her to become a warrior as a response to his wife’s death, so that she would be able to defend herself if he wasn’t there - something she adamantly told him she wasn’t.

Neither the result of their skin colour, but because of genuine mistrust based on what these two races have done in the past.

None of them discriminated against each other based on skin colour / ethnicity.

Neither of them have been relevant to the plot outside of confined areas, but they’ve appeared semi-frequently in novels. Calia especially used to just exist as this empty void between her birth and Legion, until we were told of her marriage to a footman. But Tess hasn’t been side-lined in favour of Liam, Genn still thinks of her frequently. It has been shown both in game and in books.

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Don’t pretend to know what I do in my free time.

But the actual answer is that we can all understand playing something that’s appropriate to the setting. War is commonplace, the implications of poverty and strife are certainly there and so a character turning to violent crime for financial gain or simply because they can’t handle the world around them is understandable.

Those same circumstances do not lend themselves to gay-bashing or the use of slurs. Plus, do you really want to be that guy putting in homophobic stuff into Warcraft when the developers have said that Azerothian societies are more accepting on sexuality and gender than many of our own?

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That comic confused me. As you said, it showed Magni alienating Moira by forcing her to become something she felt she wasn’t and didn’t want to be but then we are never told what is it that she wanted to do.

It also didn’t seem to address Magni’s belief of women not being fit for the throne. As in, it just flat out didn’t mention it. Which then begs the question if what happened between Moira and Thaurissan is still canon or not, as the basis of their initial bonding was Thaurissan recognizing Moira as a strong warrior and capable queen while her father did not.

Magni wasn’t a bad father per se in the old book either. He clearly loved Moira and wanted to keep her safe but due to his beliefs didn’t think she would be capable of handling the throne.

I don’t know if they wanted to retcon the sexism thing entirely or just sanitize the lore enough for general audiences? The conception of Thaurissan 2.0 Electric Boogaloo is also sort of glossed over in the newer publications that I’ve seen. However, I haven’t had the fortune to get my hands on all publications so correct me here if I’m wrong.

That’s how racism works, yes. Won’t name any concrete real life examples (we all know enough of them) as it would derail the discussion but the principle behind racism and extreme nationalism isn’t the aesthetical preference for one RGB value over another.

People are taught (whether actively or passively) to hate or simply mistrust certain groups based on false equivalences. They come to associate negative values with those groups so eventually their appearance and/or culture become synonymus with said negative values. This is also the case for misogyny and misandry.

A Mag’har immediately snarling at a regular orc or a Bronzebeard and Wildhammer blaming the Dark Iron at the first sign of trouble are all instances of racial prejudice. Racist/sexist/something-phobic actions can have, and often have, a reasonable explanation behind them but that doesn’t stop them from being racist/sexist/something-phobic. It also doesn’t make the person with those erroneous beliefs an irredeemable piece of excrement that must be summarily executed on sight. It does make them incorrect in some of their beliefs.

As you just brought up, prejudice can be rooted in a legitimate fear or distrust that is distorted by personal, societal, and environmental factors. Many heated debates are sparked around it.

Which is why roleplaying a prejudiced character is both interesting but also extremely challenging. Similarly, characters of the same sort in written works can either be done extremely well or in extremely poor taste, especially if the reader is forced into their viewpoint.

Now, do I think that people should experiment with such characters on Argent Dawn? No. Not because their mere existence would be immoral nor because it indicates that the writers behind them have some sort of hidden extremist agenda.

It shouldn’t be done because most people playing this game can not distance themselves from their own personal feelings well enough to handle writing or reading about it in a tasteful and objective manner. It’s an endless source of server drama and blog posting.

I think I have definitely missed out on some of the lore during my breaks from the game. I apologize for that. Could you point me towards the source? Not to argue with you (I concede that the two ladies really seem to be just victims of writer mismanagement.) but because I would love to read more. Found Tess a cool character and was disappointed when I learned I wouldn’t be seeing more of her since I always abandoned my rogues at level thirty or so.

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You’re a bit off-mark, no one really disagrees with this as a whole, only with your conclusion that it is based on skin colour. It’s not, really, that’s merely an identifying trait.

I’d say that’s a very liberal use of ‘reasonable’.

It is honestly 1 of the easiest things that has ever existed if you stick with prejudice that’s reflected in the setting.

This reads as “the RP community simply isn’t ready for my ascended phobic RP” and I dearly hope that isn’t intentional.

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Considering she’s a priest these days, clearly something along those lines. Or it could literally just be as simple as her not wanting to be a warrior or fighter of any sort.

If Magni’s old, blatant sexist isn’t canon, then what happened between Moira and Thaurissan could just be that he allowed her to do what she wanted to, rather than what he believed what she needed to be unlike her father who wanted her to be a warrior.

Except in the grand scheme of things it’s an incredibly recent development, not completely born out of out of simply “they’re different from us”. Wildhammers and Bronzebeards aren’t taught to mistrust certain groups based on false equivalences, their distrust and hatred of the Dark Iron is 100% justified. Difference is, their story through Cata and MoP is them overcoming this hatred and working together as the Three Hammers. Mag’har and greenskins? The latter bear the corruption of fel magic, the very people that brought down Draenor or nearly corrupted the entire Orcish race in the case of the AU. Both they and the dwarves have been shown to get over this distrust with relatively ease, in some cases such as the Dark Iron the dwarves have no issues with Dark Irons that aren’t aligned with Ragnaros. So they can still clearly tell the difference between genuinely bad Dark Irons and those who are good.

I’d call it more a result of centuries / decades of mistrust rather than genuine racial prejudice.

Tess is brought up a lot in Before the Storm, albeit as a potential match for Anduin to wed. A notion he refuses - he abhors arranged weddings, states his belief that she would as well because she is a strong-willed woman with her own life. Other than that you are left with the questline to unlock worgen heritage armour. Gives us a good insight into her mind and relationship with her parents.

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Honestly I’m probably gonna come off as rude here but at this point it’s really tiring trying to see people make comparisons between the real-life discrimination and oppression of minorities to fictional factions where the judgment comes more from where they pledge their allegience rather than how they were born.

It’s really difficult to give the benefit of the doubt when this has been explained so thoroughly before, and it’s the same arguements every time.

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While the OP of this thread seems pretty angry, and so his points kinda come off as a rant. I think most sensible people agree that sexism, homophobia, and irl-related racism has no place in the game.

Points made regarding “retconned” old lore are not proven. Until blizzard actually re-writes it or comes out to say it’s changing, it’s still canon. Therefore it’s probably worth accepting that sexism does exist in WoW, favouring different sexes depending on the race. The dichotomy was actually a noted feature point in Kaldorei lore, and it’s stated that only recently things have loosened up. One battalion of male soldiers does not mean the whole society was equal.

Having burdensome images in your storytelling is important to add weight and realism to it. People like to include this in their RP too, but it has to be done with intelligence and nuance. Claiming “Women shouldn’t fight” In a game where women have been fighting side by side with men for all time, is stupid and lore-breaking. However, including in your character’s backstory, for example, that their childhood was cloistered and sheltered by noble parents because their duty in life was to marry, and only marry, before breaking free from those societal bonds due to circumstance, is not a bad thing.

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Comparisons aside, why would anyone -want- to RP a bigot? How is that enjoyable?

“Oh but he’s not meant to be a nice guy!”

Great so you’re gonna just go with a 1-dimensional pastiche on racism/sexism that makes no sense in the world, ok.

There are things called negative character traits and some of us use them to make our RP characters look and sound less like cardboard cutouts waiting for social RP in Stormwind and a bit more nuanced.

In the spirit of this thread I already mentioned how blatant IRL-themed racism and sexism doesn’t have a place in our character concepts (as they don’t occur in the setting), but saying that my Mag’har orc’s severe hatred for his greenskinned kin is just a 1-dimensional pastiche is stupid. It’s grounded in the game’s settings very firmly and easily explained with canon lore and what struggles my character endured.

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Conflict.

It’s the opposite of being one-dimensional, because you create conflict. The point is, however, to create the right conflict.

Thus better to RP bigotry that’s more ingrained in lore. EG; Lightforged bigotry towards normal Draenei, Highborne bigotry against lowborne, etc.

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Agreed, you have to be a pretty bad roleplayer, trolling or just plain stupid to use real-life bigotry in RP. There is already bigotry and antagonism in the game to use.

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Having a reasonable explanation doesn’t justify the behaviour. It is merely an explanation. Sitting down with someone and finding out the story behind their behaviour can help reach a common ground with one another however.

Daelin chasing after Thrall’s peaceful Horde with the sole purpose to wipe the orcish race and its allies off the face of Azeroth isn’t right but we, the readers, and many of the characters in that universe can understand why he acted as he did. Jaina tried to reason with him and it unfortunately didn’t work.

Zul’jin is lauded as a great character despite his fanatical hatred of the elves and the fact that he wanted to see to every elven man, woman, and child dead and Silvermoon burnt to the ground. When the Scourge rampaged through Eversong Woods and decimated 90% of the population Zul’jin’s immediate reaction was to attack the elves when they were at their lowest.

By our real life standards his actions were nothing short of sociopathic but from the perspective of the Amani, a race that had everything taken from them by the arrogant elves who believed they could do whatever they wanted because magic, Zul’jin was a cunning warlord and a hero.

It isn’t easy if it’s written well and in a way that invites legitimate discussion around said character. Anyone can fart out a Tesco Great Value Garithos and call it a day but it’s not going to be a tasteful or objective representation of the subject.

To bring up concrete examples, look at William Ford in 12 Years a Slave. A man of faith and by all accounts a man regarded as kindhearted, humble, and a devout Christian by not only his peers but his slave, the author, as well. Though he was partly a product of his time he still erroneously believed that slavery was right or at the very least necessary.

He treats his slaves much kinder than other owners but he still views them as lesser simply due to their ethnicity and exploits their labour. He might not be actively enslaving anyone but he is complicit in the continuation of the practice by purchasing, owning, and selling people.

Scarlet O’Hara from Gone with the Wind can be seen both as a misogynistic caricature of women and as a strong feminist icon. She is spoiled, vain, very materialistic, knowingly acts like an airheaded bimbo to manipulate men, uses men solely for their wealth or as a tool of petty revenge, and is pre-occupied with nothing but banging one particular person. It reads almost like an incel manifesto, right?

Yet she is also clever and resilient, cares greatly about her family, refuses to adhere to the strict societal standards set for women of her time and status, and is the only one in her village to not only survive the economical collapse that followed the Civil War but protect others from destitution as well. Through the course of the book she becomes more ruthless and hardens her heart in order to see her plans through because many depend on her.

Those two are characters that both engage in problematic thinking and behaviour, to put it lightly. Yet they aren’t just a sum of their faults. They are well-rounded characters who also happen to be very bad in some way.

Contrast that with the average racist / sexist / something-phobic character on Argent Dawn and you’ll see what I mean. It also doesn’t help that due to the two party consent nature of roleplay these sort of characters rarely develop past their schtick but also do not face consequences for it.

Garithos, for all his faults, ended up getting his rightful comeuppance before he wore out his welcome. Had Blizzard Blizzard writers decided to let him somehow outsmart Sylvanas and keep running the show he would have come to be regarded like Ronin, with players wishing for him to be iced.

I don’t roleplay such heavily flawed characters because I don’t think they work well in the context of this game and its roleplay scene. In my opinion the Dungeons & Dragons universe is better suited for exploring those kind of concepts in a serious manner.

Also, no, this isn’t to stay that the WoW roleplaying community is inferior but that the MMO has been made to cater to more general audiences and the playerbase reflects that. Trying to handle certain topics with maturity and objectivity is going to be difficult if half your interactions are with people still in their teens and early twenties, who describe characters such as Garithos or Garrosh as poggers and based.

I also do not think I’m a particularly good roleplayer myself. Enjoy writing more than anything. I do not tackle certain subjects at all however, in any setting, because I know that my own personal experiences cloud my judgement too much to be able to write objectively about them.

Frankly I don’t feel as if the discrimination, assault, and murder of people who were born with a differing sexuality or gender than the pre-defined societal norm belongs in any sort of roleplaying medium. Personally I would walk out if a DM presented me with that, not because I’m an immature individual but because I don’t find it tactful, interesting, or appropriate. You have so many options for villains and challenging norms and you choose to go with “hey lets hate the gays”.

Nah. Not at all.

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Is this threat about the Lore Racism and Sexism or are we talking about the Real life stuff?

Like is srsly somebody saying here “Ignore the lore and history of wow cause racism is bad and therefor we should ignore it in the game even thow thats the entire foundation the game is build on.”?

While i absolutly agree that out of charakter none of these behaiviors should be tollerated to say that its not in the lore and a charakter can’t have that flaw is utter taurencrap and just shows that the person complaining is not able to sepperate IC from OOC and therefor by standards a bad Roleplayer.

For the past several comments everyone has reiterated multiple times that we are not talking about this. Not one of us has argued for the inclusion of hating gays, especially since it has never been part of the Warcraft universe. Just like humans turning on each other based on skin colour has never been part of it either.

You have an enormous chip on your shoulder and I’m sorry that people have hurt you in real life but you keep arguing a point that was never made by me or the other recent posters.

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For that they need to show the Nightborne actually actively worshipping Elune. Would be nice, that.

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Excuse me. :triumph:

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It was rather shamefully ignored in the Suramar story, alas. One of the few low points of that entire zone for me.

No, what is generally being said is that if the only flaw you can think for a character is stuff like “i hate gays and brown people” then that is really bad.

Its also things that doesnt exist in WoW.

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