If you include trinkets sure. But its a question how easily and often they can be countered not whether they can be countered at all… would have thought that was obvious.
nah not even counting trinkets
anyways, you will defend your class until your last breath. I get it
Its apparently impossible for shamans to see that their toolkit could take some nerfs to make an overall enjoyable game for everyone
Before you accuse me of being biased, other classes should have their toolkit pruned aswell.
Despite all your stuff, warrs can still connect to you right. So what about classes that arent warriors? idk man, too biased, cant reason with you. pretty annoying
DH, War, Ret, DK, rogue et etc they can all maintain pretty much permanent uptime on a shaman without outside interference and even then not for long.
Im curious what classes are you saying shaman has a “disgusting amount of cc” compared to?
Top comedy coming from a Blizzard’s favorite child class/spec. Blink away lad!
Hey, guess what forms of CC I have. (disc)
Fear
Roots
That is all.
Now look at your very long list of CC’s.
It’s funny seeing more Shams defend their class when it comes to CC. ;d;d;d;d ;dd
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Dont you also have an instant ranged stun as well?
Instant AoE fear on fairly short CD.
Roots.
Mind Control.
That being said I do think disc is on the lower end of the healer CC spectrum, however they have a lot of stuff in their toolkit that offsets that. Ridiculous damage without rly losing healing output, mass dispel, external offensive and defensive CDs etc and they pair extremely well with higher cc dps eg RMP etc.
Since when?
You’re also ccing yourself with mind control and it shares dr with fear.
Chastise? Might be Holy priest thing not sure not terribly familiar with the differences between them.
Its still a CC, and a good one since you can move them far away and behind LoS, or toward your melees.
“Your ccing yourself while you do it” so does Lasso
“It DRs” so does everything else.
But as said I do agree Disc is on the low side for CC compared to pretty much every other healer however they have plenty stuff as a trade off for that, plus the CC they do have, the instant fear is aoe and on a fairly short CD, its amazing for disrupting an entire team and setting up follow up cc from your team mates either offensively or defensively.
No, you can still move. Priests can’t do anything while they’re mcing someone.
In most cases trying to fear several people like that ends up with you getting CCed into oblivion because you ran into melee with everyone instead of staying away from melee range.
You want to pretty much stay as far away as possible from melee so they’ll have a hard time CCing you. You do not ever want people on top of you.
True , though your still channelling a long cast meaning you cant heal etc, plus it leaves you very open to an interrupt and unlike mind control which is shadow spell school iirc? While Lasso is nature which is same school as all shaman abilities besides flame shock, lava burst and frost shock if specced.
Range on Hex, wind shear is also 30 yard range so your generally not getting them on a healer unless you also run in a bit which exposes you, lasso is only 20 yard range.
You can run behind a pillar while you channel so people can’t easily interrupt you, priests can’t even move. Your channel also doesn’t get interrupted from forced movement, MC does.
Still more range than fear. And disc priests don’t even have an interrupt or a stun.
True, again I never said priest has more CC than shaman lol. That doesnt mean shaman has “too much” cc, priest is just on the lower end for it and why it usually plays setup comps with rogues etc they have a lot of other stuff that makes them great.
Hell you can just check the murlok io pvp meta healer rankings.
For solo shuffle disc is ranked 3rd. Shaman is ranked last.
For 3v3 disc is still 3rd while shaman is second from last lol
Playing holy priest in shuffle, I absolutely stomp disc priests into the ground unless DPS screws up so they get themselves killed.
They can’t match my HPS, I’m running 60% mastery. Doesn’t matter if they deal damage while healing. People usually die on their team when people are dealing tons of damage because they can’t actually deal with the damage once their pain supp & barrier is gone. They can’t even fear me unless I’m already CCed because if they try to go for a fear I chastise them and fear them instead.
It’s harder to beat a well played resto shaman than a well played disc priest.
Im not terribly familiar with holy tbf but they seem decent see them often enough. They are ranked second last in shuffle just above shaman and 4th in 3v3 just below disc though.
You never had any valid points to argue with in the first place
Simply because you do not have the class experience to understand the true potential of what your class can do
On the MMR you play people think Disc priest is broken, Mage is bad, and a bunch of other things which only happen on beginner MMR
And the best response you can do to any facts you are being replied with is “haha dh player xd”
Even though I told you I also play Shaman, and while I am by no means good on it, I still play it on a higher level than you do. But this is not a sausage measuring contest.
The very fact that things like Static field totem are receiving a big CD nerf (going up from 60 to 90 seconds) shows that even the developers understand the bloat of Shaman CC
Im only bothering to continue responding to this post because of the sheer absurdity of the topic lol. Btw didnt I just see you in another post saying shaman was “auto lose” etc?..
The meta rankings have shaman at dead last in shuffle, and second last in 3s.
There are endless posts complaining about how bad shamans are, this is the first time ive ever seen someone actually complaining about them being overpowered in anyway.
While there are countless posts talking about how broken other classes are, especially DH.
Shaman in general has been the butt of balancing jokes for years and years, shamans being ignored and not cared about by blizz has been a staple meme in the wow community for as long as I can remember so the very idea of someone complaining about them is just hilarious, let alone coming from a demon hunter the universally recognised noob hero class.
Hell one thing I pointed out in another post is just look at the shaman talent tree which hadnt been updated in forever.
The shaman talent tree has the same number of total nodes on average as the rest of the classes (left and right side combined) except it has more than double and in a few cases more than TRIPLE the number of 2 point talents.
This is relevant because you list every single cc we have access to as if its actually practical.
You swap around stuff all the time you never have access to all of it at once.
Resto doesnt play frost shock because of this, period, for the others its built into their damage so its not optional.
You cant get cap totem AND tremor AND earthgrab etc etc without losing other stuff, same for most classes but waaaay more pronounced with shaman.
And to quote your own words back at you, The very fact that in the shaman update just there they massively pruned half the talents and changed most of the 2 pointers to 1 shows you there was a big issue before.
Wed need about 10+ more talent points available to be what you actually think were at.
If you look at the most common 3s build used by the top players the left side is a constant Sophie’s Choice situation lol.
Take Lontar’s build BgQA7dFHISiZRvWu4x4NMgmZAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIRSSkUSaARJlkiEBBtIRgmkUEokIaJJRS0A
For pvp talents you got living tide which is mandatory, static which is mandatory, and then grounding… which is mandatory except for certain melee cleaves that dont have an Rdruid etc for trying to ground clones. Unleash is a super situational swap out for one of them usually vs melee cleaves on maps like Dalaran arena, problem with it is the knockback requires to you have lightning instead of water shield active, so your constantly wasting globals switching between them as well as losing out on the mana generation youd normally have just to have an extra knockback every 30 seconds instead of grounding.
With Lontar’s current build you have,
cap totem (without the upgrade),
hex (without the upgrade so 30 sec cd),
thunderstorm (not that i think anyone should count knockbacks as a CC every melee has multiple ways to get straight back anyway unless knocked off a ledge or something, still they usually get right back).
Lasso (ive explained the obvious risks and downsides with it multiple times)
With this build your missing out on improved astral shift, huge deal. No curse dispel which youd need to swap something out for vs locks or other shamans, not one single mobility tool. (So while your zooming around on your DH complaining about static or thunderstorm taking you off target for a few seconds remember that outside of that the shaman has zero mobility tools compared to other healers and only a single 40% DR defensive on a 2 min cd…
What do you swap out if you need curse dispel? What do you swap out if you want improved cap totem? What do you swap out if you want shorter CD hex? The pathing to the earthgrab totem talent also requires that you take tremor which you might not want if fighting a comp without fear, so wasted talent, or requires you to take Earth Elemental, another wasted talent, or that you take both cap totem AND its upgrade which you just dont have the points for.
Your complaint and list of cc represent flawed thinking from the start.
Ill repost your original list to we can see the problems.
Here’s a list of “fun” and “interactive” things Shaman can do to you
- Kick you on 12s cd from range -
Its a good interrupt sure, though short lock duration so more of a disruption than cc compared to most other kicks. If even count kicks as cc… notice you didnt when you listed the 4 CCs DH has… - Ground your spells -
Not a CC… - Thunderstorm knock you -
Not a CC on its own by any means. - Unleash Shield knock you -
Not taken unless swapped out for grounding. RARE. - Unleash Shield root you -
Unleash is one ability. Mentioning it twice is just a dishonest attempt to make the list look bigger. - Earthgrab totem root you -
Choice talent not a given, that requires an extra wasted talent point to get - Static field totem knock / grip you
- Frost Shock root you -
Elemental only - Lasso Stun you
- Hex you -
30 sec CD reducing it requires losing something else on this list. - Frost Shock slow you -
Are we counting 50% slows as CC now lol? Not taken by Resto, part of enhance’s basic rotation, all melees have slows generally built into their rotation, not even rly used by ele unless you have a spare GCD to buff the next lava burst if your playing Flux melting and have nothing else you need to do and dont have a surge proc. - Knock you up if you dispel yourself from Flame Shock (all specs)
Do you count affliction and spriest stuff as extra cc? Its called dispel protection… theres a penalty for dispelling it willy nilly you dont get to gimp our damage entirely for free… though the knockup and damage from flame shock is pitiful compared to affli and spriest. - Capacitor totem stun you (twice in a row if speced in Guardian Cudgel) -
Means losing one or even two other things we rly need.
honorable bonus mentions:
- Burrow ending knockup -
Pretty much never taken except as ele or enh vs certain comps, requires losing static or grounding for enhance, and static, grounding or skyfury for ele - Earthquake knockdown proc lol -
Elemental only - rarely if ever actually used unless someones just trying to pad damage vs pet spam or something lol, 5% knockdown chance, 8% with upgrade which no one takes vs the other option that gives maelstrom.
So to summarize. Your “list” includes stuff across multiple specs, mentioned both Unleash and Frost shock twice to inflate the list and implies we have a bunch more talent points to spend than we actually do…
ofc it’s extra CC
ask how many healers had their teammates die because of dispeling VT because they did not calculate those 3 seconds of being horrified properly
name one shaman who doesnt play root
and is not a donut in green gear
and you’ll get a trophy for the worlds greatest detective
ah yeah knockbacks aren’t CC, I forgot being deployed to Hogwarts forcefully doesn’t make you line, ruin your uptime, stop your casts, you’re right, knocks are not CC, they do not deny people from playing the game at all
and I won’t even bother replying to the rest
you seem to not understand a class is viewed based on what IT CAN do
of course you can make a talent build where u have 0 stuns, no roots, 0 knocks, no hex, maybe dont spec wind shear too
that’s called trolling and griefing
it doesn’t matter what is situational and what it isn’t. it matters that it exists
If I had a situational death grip talent as DH would u be fine with it, because its situational? of course you wouldn’t
If mages had multiple stuns, which are optional talents, would that be fine? obviously not
can give you another 50 examples if u want
In which universe/xpac do shamans take all of these?
- I do not play ELE so idk about earthquake proc.
- However, in the case of ENHA shamans you do need many of these in order to have uptime on people because Blizzard will never give us modern 2024 movement tools and gap closers as your purple spec has.
- In the case of RESTO shamans, we do not have all of them at once as what we take depends on the comp we play.
- The kick we have is indeed powerful. Live with it.
- We do have grounding. It’s 2024. Get WA and kill it. The same applies to all the totems.
- I do not take Frost Shock as resto so IDK about it.
- Unleash Shield, I do not take as well because of other mandatory PVP talents.
- Oh boi, don’t cry for hex as a DH, please.
On top of everything, you forgot that TRAIN THE BLUE exists.
it’s not about crying
it’s about being annoyed
the only thing to cry about balance wise right now is restoration druid
and the forgotten dps specs no1 plays
people can make 50 posts about anything they like
but restoration druid is the true evil of pvp
You are deliberately misrepresenting what I said lol. I never said shamans dont take earthgrab… I said it requires an investment that means 1 or 2 less points to spend on the OTHER cc stuff so its hardly fair to list absolutely everything a shaman could get if it were somehow playing all 3 of its specs simultaneously and had half a dozen extra talent points to spend and use that to claim shaman has too much cc.
And now you realise just how wrong you are so you switch to complaining about R druid lol.