That requires a whole lot of social interacting, something a lot of people do not want.
Now people are rejected from groups if they don’t make their DPS public. I would not take people to my raid that hide their DPS. I don’t take freeloaders. Raiding a team effort, and that means that everyone has to put in a certain amount of effort. If people hide their DPS, and thus their contribution, they are not welcome as they could just start spamming fire ball and call it a day.
Not to mention that this would break all log analyzers.
This is an issue, though I honestly don’t really care about it anymore. I can do +18~+20 keys, yet the majority of keys are +15~+17 because I really cba pugging and I don’t have a static group that can do these keys.
I hate RIO with passion, if you recieved it opposite way from my post then sorry. People these times hate challenges, they want overkill in every aspect of the game… HC raid drops ilvl 400? Look for people with 420ilvl etc… this is cancer.
When Ny’alotha was just released, I had to link curve for normal runs (!!!). This has nothing to do with RIO, and everything with people looking to get carried. The same goes with M+ RIO. Obviously people with higher score are taken, because they want to get carried.
Remove RIO and they’ll find another way of “scoring” people. Maybe it’s character age + ilvl, maybe it’s the items being worn and their source etc. I rather have a solid system such as RIO than another inaccurate system that doesn’t show any performance at all.
It is Blizzard fault that in M+ one bad decision leads to failed key (not always, but sometimes) it forces players to look for best possible companions to play with, if M+ was forgiving then RIO wouldn’t even exist, and more people would be happy playing it.
M+ has to offer Challenge, but yes, I agree, 1 wipe shouldn’t feel that bad. I’m trying to time all +15 (As a warlock, it’s a pain) and I know that 1 wipe = won’t time or by 10s. A game should be enjoyable, but at this point I’m not enjoying, I’m being stressed by a damn timer. I do think that trash are quite harder than their legion counterpart, thus I really liked Legion MM+. Can’t say that much about BFA dungeons.
Whoa whoa WHOA!!!
You are going too far young lady!
How dare you mention “Fun” in the Forum?
Just kidding… you are totally right, but sadly the Game somehow mutated to be a chore or “job” instead escaping these things
Yes, timers are horrendous in games when there’s a negative side attached to it. In raids you have timers, but who cares? You wipe, you try again. In M+ the key is wasted.
At this point it means your group needs more practice. I’ve wiped a few times on a +18 and still timed it (albeit extremely close). I’ve also had +15s with multiple wipes and were still minutes off the timer expiring.
I’ve been at the point where +15 keys would be timed with seconds to spare, or wasted by a few seconds. I see you Shrine of the Storm and Siege of Boralus, took us like 4 or 5 tries.
Then once you start getting used to running these keys more often, you start getting a feel for the dungeon, the affixes etc. Despite having a timer, with more experience it becomes easier and you can start timing the 16 and 17 keys at some point, as your runs become more efficient and the mistakes become less.
When I created my warrior, the second week after hitting L120 I already finished (not timed) a +19 key. Once you know how the dungeons and affixes work, keys become less stressful and fun to challenge (for me personally).
I’ve only started playing in 7.3.5, close to BfA prepatch. I think the highest attempt I did was upper karazan at +13 and we just failed up to 200 deaths, just gave up. I barely understood the M+ concept at that time, so I can’t say much about Legion dungeons.
In BfA there are a few things I don’t like, and some of the trash being way too strong on fortified is one of them. On the other hand, I don’t enjoy Tyrannical at all this season, especially not with a garbage affix such as explosives. Last season I was happy if it was Tyrannical because the emissaries were utter garbage.
In legion most trash needed ‘no’ interrupts, tanks had forever aggro so they could just kite all the trash from boss to boss and never taking damage Especially this behaviour blizz wanted to kill, so there is now more cc/interrupts needed and tanks have less threat. Trash is far more dangerous.
On Upper kara i assume you wiped for forever on bosses. Not on trash Medivh had some fun mechanics and the last boss too. They could be really punishing.
The current amount of coordination in M+ seems to be experienced as annoying/frustrating/less fun.
That’s the first time in years that I felt like early 8.3 that when I couldn’t login a night, I felt frustrated. That never happened before, not during wrath, not during cata, not during mop, not during WoD (LUL). I felt that a bit during Legion but I had double free time than I have now, which I didn’t feel bad aboot.
Blizzard crossed the line in 8.2 between “incentivising players to log-in every day” and “if you miss one day, you’re late”. That was frustrating and now, I do think BFA is the worst expansion and I’d rather have nothing to do outside of raids (WoD era)
In my mind, MMORPG should be “Die and retry”, not a speedrun. Obviously, removing the timer is not the way to go, but not timing shouldn’t be a punishment. Also, who the hell on earth tought that timing a +15 means you can’t get a +15 in your chest…
I’m pugging most of the time, my guild does keys on tuesday night. I can’t play on tuesday night at the moment.
The issue I have with BFA’s MM+ pugging is that groups are more meta slaves and dungeons are harder (Those who are saying the game is easier now than in Vanilla-Wotlk are wrong) because of trashs.
So regarding my legion experience : 1 wipe was not that a punishment, generally speaking. Also, most of dungeons had enough spaces to play around affixes correctly, whereas most of BFA dungeos are close quarters fight. And more specs were playable in M+. Now, some specs are just persona non grata.
I mean i don’t think this patch should be taken too seriously at this point.
Specs can now compete better thanks to the thousand of bandaids they patched the classed with during the expansion.
Some people might have completed high keys with bad specs but this does not really solve the issue that the group is probably playing around them rather than benefitting from them.
I am playing forever now with a ret paladin and arms warrior. Both seems to be ‘meme’-classes but i am totally not experiencing getting drawn back by these. And we are not professionals but still finishing +20’s in time now
They do. But it requires a lot of skill and setup that in pick ups, it’s hard.
Sjeletyven plays the WORST MM+ which is demon Warlock. It’s the worst because it has no reliable CC and NO INTERRUPT AT ALL (Or at cost of damages). The issue is that, we shouldn’t over look at these guys that are really above all of common players.
Regarding melee DPS, all melee seem bad compared to Rogues and DH. But those are not bad specs. Ret paladin can help healing a lot, has a strong burst potential. Arms warrior also provide those strong burst.
Also, melee is way better than ranged in MM+. For instance, a 3 ranged DPS group is going to have a hard time whereas a 3 melee DPS group is going to smash keys easier.
Yes But every 26 needs skill and preparations. I was more responding on the “persona non grata” part. I got the idea MORE specs are now ‘viable’ in M+ than in legion.
Yeah last boss we kept wiping on. It’s one of the few M+ I actually remember, as I was still very new to WoW.
I think it’s primarily the need to constantly tab to other mobs that have insanely fast cast speeds. M+ (in BfA at least) kinda forces you to pull big, and then throws more casts that need interrupts at you, then you can interrupt.
Some trash I really hate in BfA:
the combination of the hex + hulks in AD that are constantly shielded by mobs that need stuns
packs with multiple shielding mobs in TD
the rooting mobs in TD with crocs that need to be kited
mobs that ignore agro completely in junk
the fearing mobs in KR in combination with the packs at the first boss
tiny mobs that you can’t see which direction their 1 shot attack goes
the flying spider mobs that chase you in underrot
the mobs with extremely long stuns in underrot
combination with snake + floaty thing in underrot
any combination of healing mobs in Shrine and TD combined with mobs that will 1 shot you if you stand in range and thus can’t interrupt
ML with the million mobs that all require interrupts and stuns
the bird poo in FH that you constantly have to dodge is extremely annoying, as it makes trash way harder than it should be, especially with sanguine
Despite the trash being harder, I have more problems with the bosses:
ML: first boss is just extremely annoying to have to click on tiny footballs
ML: third boss is tiny and hard to see which direction she is facing
FH: the trio bosses where you ally 1, severely depends on the combination. It can be easy or the most annoying ever
FH: shark dude is so annoying, RNG hell in combination with being thrown rotten food while not being out of the arena, not to mention buggy af
Workshop: the garden gnome has the most eye cancerous environment, up to a point where I have to give up on Tyrannical after a few wipes because my eyes simply can’t see anything anymore and start hurting
ToS: hate all the bosses except the lightning one. Extremely annoying on Tyrannical
SoB: first boss is a pain because it’s extremely punishing when you make a mistake
SotS: second boss is interrupt hell. You need several pairs of eyes to see everything going on
SotS: last boss is another interrupt hell where you constantly mess up unless you have good communication
KR: first boss: spit gold hurts so badly on higher keys, it’s no fun
KR: trio boss… I just hate it.
KR: last boss… I still haven’t figured out how to not get (nearly) 1 shot by the leap on my warrior on higher keys
UR: second boss is just a horror. Terribly designed boss for a dungeon where you need a mobile composition with enough defenses, otherwise you won’t even get past here because tantrum hurts so badly.
Junk: slime boss hurts my fingers because I have to keep moving
Junk: hate the last boss so much. The platform mechanics are extremely buggy and I constantly get stunned while in the middle of a safe zone, not to mention that jumping over the beams only works 50% of the time. Even when perfectly safe, it will bug. Oh and if you have a class that needs to build up damage, you’re useless during the damage phase.
AD: please delete Yazma, worst boss ever
TD: please delete the fire boss and don’t even bother returning her until you fixed the damn camera view in rooms where you need to stand against the wall while also looking into the room.
TL;DR: Bosses in BfA are just as terrible as the trash and I hope SL will have a less annoying set of bosses.
All specs are of course viable in M+ in the “reward area” but Imo to understand if a spec is good at M+ you should not look if 1 single person completed a 26 as a sub rogue.
You should ask yourself why would you bring a sub over a combat/assa rogue?
Or why bring a shadow priest over a fire mage.
If you can’t find multiple positive point to justify bringing a specific spec, then you are just playing around what you miss and not around what they bring.
Especially this behaviour blizz wanted to kill, so there is now more cc/interrupts needed and tanks have less threat. Trash is far more dangerous.
But every 26 needs skill and preparations. I was more responding on the “persona non grata” part. I got the idea MORE specs are now ‘viable’ in M+ than in legion.