Yes and I said that it was not the current Horde yet. So figure out your sh!t which side you wish to nagg at me from. Because you either say that I claim there was no Horde or it was the current one not old one, pre-Tauren, Trolls, Undead and all others who came along and made it into new thing.
And no. Tauren did not join the Horde in early Orc campaign but were merely repaying their debt to Orcs for escorting them. Thrall had to seek their aid in Mulgore from scratch during Rexxar campaign.
I say the current Horde became a thing when other races officialy became members of it. Creating a whole new idea that Thrall wasn’t even considering to be at first. He just wanted his people to be safe in their new land. You claim otherwise.
So let’s agree that we do not agree on the matter.
Horde exodus was to find a new destiny and land. Orcs wanted a new future. Not necesarly new Allies. It was Medivh’s machinations that led to combined forces against Burning Legion. Afterwards everyone went their separate ways.
Tauren aided Orcs against Kul Tiras because Rexxar rescued Baine from the Centaur that abducted him. Again it was an act of gratitude toward the Orcs. Thrall himself even claimed that haven’t heard much from Cairne for some period of time. So they weren’t that close at that ime.
Except it was the same Horde, you have NO PROOF that it wasn’t. “New” doesn’t refer to the fact that the Horde has non-orcish members, because that was always the case. “New” refers to the fact that it’s meant to be more peaceful and less warmongering, which was the ideal Thrall was already following in WC3. That’s why the Horde joined forces with humans and elves at the Battle of Mount Hyjal, instead of serving demons like the Old Horde would’ve. The Horde already existed back then, EVEN IF your absurd claims of the tauren and trolls not joining Thrall, when they blatantly did (why do you think the Horde faction has tauren and troll units? Why do you think Rokhan was in Orgrimmar serving Thrall?), were correct. Because, again, “New” has nothing to do with the membership, it’s about the ideals and general directive. Hell, even WoWpedia, which is generally reliable and even endorsed by Blizzard themselves, makes no distinction between the Third War’s Horde and the WoW Horde.
I meant the plot of the campaign, not what Orcs desired, sorry.
True, but it was never touched upon why did the two stick and Night Elves joined the Alliance, also there was trade between the two nations even in WoW.
That was because Cairne was depressed and not an ultimatum.
It says word in word by word when Tauren help Orcs reach Medivh that it was their way of showing gratitude for their help.
Of course there is not distinction between Third War Thrall’s Horde and WoW’s Horde. I have no problem with admitting that. What I am pointing out that in the Third War, Tauren and Trolls were allies to the Orcish Horde, not part of it.
The fact it didn’t make much difference is within De Facto area. I am pointing out the De Iure part. Being an ally to the Horde and being part of the Horde is a completely different thing.
Troll and Tauren joining the Horde didn’t change much in it’s functionality and didn’t alter much the relations between the races but it changed the original concept of the Horde. Expanded it.
Yeah, you stated their coalition was formed during the Kul Tiran war, which hasn’t been stated anywhere. Reason I chimed in was that and it rolled up from this statement -
Which is that Thrall and even Baine had always had diplomatic and even friendly relation with half of the Alliance leaders. As of Elves they find these small acts of rebellions as moves of opportunity or so I thinks.
It didn’t change anything, because the Old Horde also employed other races, one of which was the trolls.
And besides your original argument was some weird attempt at rationalizing Theron’s words which, by the way, are not supported in any way by the story. Nowhere is Blizzard trying to tell players that Yes, the Horde indeed exists because of “Alliance aggression”. No further remark is ever made after Theron’s, except for some outliers like Nathanos who, clearly, are not right in the head.
the reason why I took so much attention to it is the difference between De Facto and De Iure. Take Married and not Married couple. In both cases Man and Woman live together, have children and function as a normal family. De Facto you do not see any difference between the two. But De Iure it makes a collosal one. Simply because first couple made it official and second didn’t.
The same case was with Third War Horde that worked with Trolls and Tauren. And WoW one where Orcs, Tauren and Trolls were Married. Made it official. De Facto no change at all.
And yes. Horde and Alliance leaders used to collaborate from the very start against their respective factions. The first case was the mentioned Jaina’s aid against her Father. The trend followed suit later aswell.
So Lor’themar Theron for collaborating with Varian during MoP, and later in BfA was nothing new. In MoP he could reach Varian behind the scenes outside of any wanting gaze because of Valeera Sanguinar, who was a proud Blood Elf but also a close firned to Varian.
And in BfA it was exactly the same. Again Valeera allowed Theron to make contact with the Alliance.
That differs from Thralls built up relation with Alliance and Theron and blood elves screaming bloody murder to humans supposed crimes.
Lor’themar didn’t collaborate with Varian he wanted to marry the Alliance, leaving Horde behind. And in BFA he collaborated with same person that was blamed and hated for her action against sunreavers and were at each others throats in ToT. See the clear difference? Theron never had likeness of Alliance or ones he went in bed with.
The Alliance wasn’t the antagonist of the Invasion of Durotar campaign, but Kul Tiras, which was acting on its own.
Theron cooperated AGAINST the lawful Horde during a FACTION WAR.
Theron further tried to REJOIN the Alliance, which no other Horde leader tried to do.
Also, your argument about Valeera is complete headcanon. I checked wowpedia and nowhere is it stated that she acted as liaison between Theron and the Alliance. In BfA, she was acting as liaison between Baine and the Alliance, not Theron.
You know what else there is no proof of? How the hell Theron made contact with Varian in the first place. There was no hint of it on earth and heaven. So the only Blood Elf patriot and personal friend to High King of the Alliance is the only logical assumption.
I would be shocked if it was Vereesa Winderunner that was the mediator not Valeera for example. Theron had no friends within the Alliance to begin even making contact with Varian.
And in the Revelations comic where he was gladiator in the Ring of Blood alonside Broll Bearmantle and Valeera Sanguinar there were multiple scenes where she was arguing with Broll about her people’s current status. And that was before they even joined the Horde.
So yes. Varian was well aware about Quel’thalas’ fate. Theron’s actions are are explained in such way that in MoP, Blood Elves were still considered as second category members with loose ties to the Horde.
Garrosh’s actions made Theron reconsider his loyalties. In MoP he wasn’t conspiring against Garrosh. He was working on ending his cooperation with the Horde and beginning new one with the Alliance.
In BfA before he started acting against Sylvanas he first went through Blood Elf heritage quest where he pondered much about her and how she had changed. Then the truth started to unearth on how her election to Warchief was a sham and manipulation from the start.
I already know Valeera did not play any role in MoP because it’s literally a fact. I don’t need anything to know that your baseless headcanon is false.
There’s no indication that a fourth volume is coming out.
That’s debatable with Sylvanas, she was put on the throne by a dying, delirious troll, who was deceived by a dude from hell.
That’s like calling Onyxia the rightful ruler of stormwind in a scenario where her deceit worked.
It’s not debatable. Vol’jin still made her Warchief. His reasons for doing so are irrelevant. There’s a reason why her forces are called “Loyalists”; it’s because they remain loyal to the lawful Warchief. Yes, Sylvanas is a psycho, evil, crazy, but she was still the lawful Warchief by virtue of the fact that Vol’jin, the former leader of the Horde, gave her the throne.
Quel’thalas is its own thing. Them being part of horde makes as much sense as them being part of the alliance. Quel’thalas was not part of alliance for thousands of years and it joined for a short while and then left again. Funnily enough, when they left they were still high elves, so you cannot argue it was a blood elf thing. The Alliance membership, was a very short and insignificant part of the kingdom’s history. At this point in the game, they have been part of horde longer than they have been part of the alliance, because it was that short.
So while I partly agree with your statement, the same can be said about the alliance membership.
I already addressed that. What’s better or more profitable for a nation… being isolated politically, economically, culturally, etc. or being part of a massive international alliance that offers economic and military protection and which is at the forefront of Azeroth’s defense?