I wrote a long comment in response to this but it got removed (and I got silenced for 24h, lol) because I put a bad word in when making a typical quote from AV games early on (here without the bad word): “who capped SHGY? Now this will take forever!”.
I played AV almost daily (with some breaks) from launch of BGs until around May so I know how it went down. I’m gonna summarize what I wrote because I’m not going to write it all again.
In general you are wrong about 75% of what you wrote and you kind of proved my point when bringing up Russian horde. They played differently probably because they have shorter queue times and therefore go for short games (or because they can kind of still do premades). So, its not about the map.
You are just completely clueless about rep here. Winning is what gives the most rep and with a short queue you maximize by winning games ASAP (it’s the same with honor). And kills don’t give rep, lol.
You said horde made premades give up, which is just false, because it only happened with really bad premades. I’ve beaten really bad premades as pug in WSG and AB as well, so don’t blame the map for this.
Oh, and 2/3 is basically 60-40 so you are just repeating what I wrote
"Oh, and 2/3 is basically 60-40 so you are just repeating what I wrote "
2/3 is 66-33 so if you wanna round it, you should say 70-30, but it’s just a minor correction.
My point is: if 7 games from 10 you have no chance to win, then why would you choose that BG? Possible win chance affects participation way more than queue time.
Since Alliance rush meta has been based on the map imbalance and the horde counter meta has been based on the map imbalance also it is obvious that everything has started with the map unbalance and queue time, premades, horde racials, etc. just amplified that.
Short queue doesn’t guarantee win. Map imbalance that supports your meta does. So why alliance rep farmers would have been interested in fast losses?
Kill, loot, deliver the loot = rep.
Russian horde rush meta has been based on the DB backdoor exploit because they could play fast games and win with it. Lately the DB backdoor exploit has been fixed, and surprisingly Russian horde also plays turtle since then.
Really good (R10+) premades were indeed unstoppable, but most premades just gave up if the game took too long to maximize honor / hour, that’s why the false conception started to spread that alliance is losing so much because they are not interested in winning.
When premades were stopped by Blizzard, horde played turtle all the time and AB was not up yet, alliance rankers really tried their best to lead the pugs and try to win in long lasting games but the map imbalance made it nearly impossible in at least 70-80% of cases so as soon as they had better option (AB) they have left AV for good.
Here’s why you are wrong when saying the map imbalance comes first. The impact of other factors happen before players can even realize what the win rate is because you have to play a set of games to derive a win rate from.
I’m saying most players will want to try a rush if that’s the way to maximize rewards. You focus only on wins while many players actually focus on the rewards.
Here’s what you wrote:
I’m just correcting your mistake.
Maybe something changed with their queues, we don’t know that. Also, since horde could win by rushing then EU horde should have been doing it as well, by YOUR logic.
Yes kind of true, but I think most alliance rankers had left way before the release of AB. Essentially ALL the players from those really good premades (R10+) stopped doing AV as soon as they couldn’t premade anymore.
In anyother pvp game in the world. If a map favours one side over the other? It would be removed instantly. Some went around it, by letting teams start on a random side of the map = even it out that way.
Map is unbalanced heavily favours horde side.
No, I really meant 60-40 in percentages, as in 60% wins for horde and 40% wins for alliance and by 2/3 I meant “two thirds”. It’s really close to what he said either way, but apparently he wants to debate arbitrary numbers for which we have no data…
result would be 100% the team on favored side of the map.
If you have a big advantage? You will play to get that advantage and win. Once the advantage has been gained? Game is lost.
There are plenty of data to support this, where sides are randomly chosen. Winning the bad side? is a rarety.
Not completely true, because a lot of players also want to maximize rewards. If horde had 2 min queue time they would not try to play 45 min games for 5k+ bonus honor. Instead they would want to end it fast and be happy with 3k bonus honor or a bit less. At that point they can even let alliance play their little rush game where alliance wins most of the time and horde would still be happy because they can most of the time get around the same amount of honor as the alliance got. That is basically what happened during the first week or so when AV was released (until horde queues became longer and alliance premades took over).
You got it completely wrong there.
Allience can in a direct push for base? MAYBE win it faster than hordes can. Its a close race.
What was going on during the rushes was this “We did NOT prevent hordes from gaining any kind of bonus honor or rep from taking bunkers and killing lieutenant’s” In fact you oftent got more bonus honor in the end from losing than we got from winning.
Then you began to turtle the games. And that is in favour of the horde side. Stop the rush or slow us down? And due to map imbalance you get a free win. On top of that, you go out of you’r way to prevent allience from getting any kind of bonus honor from towers and lieutenant’s.
Once you began that sh1t? You’r queue time went from 20mins to an hour withing a week. And what is it at now? 2 hours?
Allience need to play a perfect game to have a chance of winning, while you can just lame around in field of strife, and slowly push into SHGY. Because you’r backup to attack our GY, is closer than our backup to defend it.
And for whatever reason? The hill is designed to give horde advantage, because we have to somehow get thru a chokepoint to OUR gy, that can be defended by 5 ranged players with healers in safespots, out of reach. Our OUR gy? Is easier to attack and hold, than it is to defend. While IB has instant reinforcements making it easier to defend and retake.
And that is why you win. Map imbalance. Layout got chainged for a reason in TBC you know.
You said I’m completely wrong and then your post is 90% agreeing with me, lol.
You have some details wrong but other than that you are saying the same thing as me. I played AV almost daily from when it was launched until May (with a couple of breaks).
Here’s the details you got wrong: First, yes, the alliance did win more than horde in the beginning when both sides were rushing. They can simply get to the boss faster and had an easier exploit for pulling boss solo. Yes, due to skipping elites and bunkers the alliance sometimes got less bonus honor for it.
Second, queue times did not change that fast, and the main driving factor is the lack of alliance players. The fastest increase in queue times happened when alliance couldn’t premade in AV anymore and essentially every alliance ranker stopped doing AV.
Third, I never said there’s no map imbalance, I’m just saying that horde started to play longer games (turtle) because of having longer queues and to defend against premades.
Also, yes, in AV these days it’s free win for horde but it wasn’t always like that. Now it is because most alliance players have abandoned AV. And, Horde is preventing alliance from getting any honor from towers and LT’s because that increases the bonus honor for horde.
Well, I’m not wrong. These forums are just full of ignorant ppl like you. The fact that you bring up racials when we are discussing how/why the win rate changed and became 99% win for horde in AV just goes to show it.
The horde advantages just aren’t as big as some ppl think. The win rate was something like 70% for horde after premades were stopped. At that point most of the alliance rankers already abandoned AV, then as more and more of them abandoned AV the win rate increased further until where we are now. Blaming the map for this is nonsense and blaming racials is even worse. None of them changed while the win rate changed so clearly it was something else (and the horde queue increased, which indicates less alliance players).
Edit: Actually the map did change when they closed the backdoors (good call imo), but that didn’t really change very much in terms of win rates.
Yes, and the whole honor system is different so players are not forced to do WSG/AB to compete for ranks. Were the resources in AV added with TBC as well or was that later?
It was in TBC. Which is why they moved the cave. The distance to the first tower vs. the first bunker had to be adjusted solely for that reason.
It was in the patch before they moved the cave that they made it so people would only ress in the cave once all of the faction’s graveyards have been lost, which is why the cave being moved had nothing to do with graveyards.
The cave ress thing was changed for both factions btw, just to clarify since otherwise these victims would jump at a chance to say it’s only because of one faction.
All of the commanders and lieutenants, as well as the turn-ins, had been removed close to that overhaul to reinforcements in AV, in the middle of TBC.
They even had to put in an aura that’d make the faction boss oneshot people just to prevent the base rushing, to put the focus back on towers and bunkers instead.
The map is the main reason. There is no way Alliance can win unless the horde it grossly outnumbered. You’re on the Horde side so you have no idea what you are talking about. Alliance doesn’t have an advantage at any point on that map.
No you’re wrong once the Horde kill all the alliance at SH GY it’s nearly impossible for the Alliance to take it back. SH GY is easy to defend as horde: The Horde has high ground there and there is no way for the alliance to get past the choke point until they move to the next GY. Alliance is only rezzing 10 at a time at their closest GY which is a long way from the SH GY. Horde is rezzing 20 at a time at their nearest GY from SH so they will through attrition always defeat the alliance with greater numbers. Also the SH GY has two avenues of approach when the alliance is trying to hold SH and the horde can just go around it. When the Horde is defending SH they only have to defend one very small choke point that’s on high ground.
Stormpike GY is on low ground and can be surrounded on three sides, the hills doesn’t stop line of sight and it’s impossible to defend.
That has nothing to do with it. The skill of a player can’t overcome the map imbalance. If a majority of the alliance players can’t get past SH it’s impossible to win.
“These types of points”? If the Horde can take over the SH GY due to rezzing 20 at a time while the Alliance rezzes 10 at at time farther away and there are two avenues of approach for the horde and only one through a tight choke point it doesn’t matter how skilled a player is if there is no way to win. You attacking “my type of point” rather than explaining your side isn’t helping anyone understand a different view.
