Let me ask you this.
If you have 2 motivated teams fighting in AV. Their main objective is to win. They don’t care about honor or reputation rewards. All the care about is to WIN and kill the boss first no matter how long it takes.
How often do you think Alliance would win in this scenario?
My argument is that they would lose less than 75% of all games in this scenario.
Tough to say but probably about 30-40%. However it’s kind of hard to stay motivated while you get repeatedly crushed by the fact the map is so Horde favoured.
While queue times probably have an effect on win rates (though apparently they don’t in AB and WSG) the argument has a massive hole. In actual vanilla the queue times were revearsed. Alliance outnumbered Horde by something like 2:1 and yet their winrates in AV were never even close to how high Horde winrates are now. And that’s with the exact same reward system that supposedly causes this issue.
We don’t have 2 hour queues for WSG and AB tho.
You’re missing the point entirely. Also if you think Horde got terribly low winrate in those two, you’re sorely mistaken.
Ok so you literally agree with me then? My argument is that the MAIN cause is not map balance. And not even you believe that. You agree with my argument.
So why are we talking about map balance when it’s not the main cause and it’s just a map that is a recreation that is not being exploited or used in an unintnded way?
Why are we not spending all focus on the things that are he main cause? Things that are not authentic or being used in an unintended way. Technical systems that can easily be tweaked.
Well yea. Turns out that more people on Alliance like to play BGs that are actually balanced so Horde queues there are much shorter. Who would have thought? And no I have never claimed Horde have low winrates there.
But it is the main cause. It’s what leads to all other issues. The map is imbalanced so people don’t queue for it and are less motivated to fight for a win if they do queue.
But dude. You just said that Alliance would win 30-40% of all games if they didnt care about the rewards. But Horde used to lose 80-90% and Horde always had a longer queue… We was fighting premades over and over losing almost all games and we had a long queue. Way more Horde was queueing for AV than Allaince, even when Alliance was doing premades.
How does that not prove my point again?
You are agreeing with me, but you are just fighting map balance, for no reason. Why?
You agree with my arguemnt that the MAIN casue is not map balance.
Can you also agree that the map is not being exploited or used in an uninteded way and is an authentic recreation?
Can you agree that the reward system is being used in an unintended way?
You already agree about the queue.
Why are you so stubborn here? It’s the rewards that does that. it’s not rewarding to play AV based on whatever. Call it map balance, call it what you want. If the rewards where better, they would play AV and fight for a win, right? They are not motivated, you agree with me, and the queue is the case for that.
No. I said that’s what the winrate would be if people could stay as motivated to win every single game as they are when they 1st queued for AV. But that’s impossible to expect considering they have to fight on imballanced map.
How long did Horde losing 90% of games last? In my memory it didn’t even last 1 week after AV came out and it was 100% because people were only rushing and Horde wasn’t using their map advantages and the winrate revearsed as soon as they did. A bit of a different situation wouldn’t you agree?
And as I said I don’t agree that the map imbalance isn’t the main issue.
Can you also agree that the map is not being exploited or used in an uninteded way and is an authentic recreation?
Ok so here is one of the dictionary definitions of “exploit”:
make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource).
So yes in that sense the map is indeed being exploited. And unless it was intended for Horde to have a 95%+ winrate it’s also not the intended way.
Why are you so stubborn here? It’s the map that does that. It’s not fun or rewarding playing an imbalanced BG when there are balanced ones out there and expecting people to stay motivated indefinitely while doing so is ludecrous.
You just agreed that if Alliance and Horde fight to WIN in AV then YOU THINK that Horde have a 10-20% map balance advantage.
The actual results right now is 50%. Alliance are losing 100% of all pug games.
So the map gives 10-20% advantage, IN YOUR OPINION. But we see a MUCH higher loss rate right now. Something else is the cause of the last 40-30%.
You have now agreed with me that the queue motivates Horde.
You have agreed that the map motivates horde.
The only ting that is left is to talk about the reward system.
Do you think that the fact that an Alliance pug can get around 80% of all rewards in 15-20min have anything to do with them not wanting to spend 1h extra to have a chance of getting 100% of the rewards? In reality, spending 400% more time to get 25% more rewards.
Do you think that is any way have anything to do with this situation. And if so, how much?
Can you agree that the reward system motivates Horde more than Alliance with the current queue and map?
Motivation. This is the main cause. Everything is funneled to this. The queue, the reward, peoples beliefs about the map and so on. Motivation.
How can we motive Alliance if we can’t change the map. We can’t change the map because it’s a recreation that is not being exploited or used in an unintended way. But we CAN motivate Alliance in other ways.
Do you have any suggestions?
glad they got banned thanks for letting us know!
Well that “something else” is also caused by the map imbalance. So the main reason remains Horde map advantage since it also causes a bunch of other issues - the primary being that it’s so demoralising for Alliance.
If Alliance would consistently be getting 80% of the bonus honor from AV it would be an amazing BG for solo queuers. They don’t.
I suppose we could perhaps scrap the entire ranking system and lock BG rewards behind turn ins of marks you get for finishing matches. Wait that’s precisely what Blizzard did in TBC. But since this is Classic and not TBC Classic we can’t really expect such changes to the authentic reward system now can we? Well we can’t really expect anything to be done about AV in Classic at this point anyway considering the end of Classic is getting pretty close. Horde had their “you think you do, but you don’t” wishes granted and AV has been in this miserable state ever since. I suppose the whole “no changes” philosophy was reafirmed. Blizzard appeasing modern players’ wishes led to terrible results.
Do you think that if Alliance had a 1h+ queue and Horde had a instant queue and Alliance defended for 1h every game. Do you think that would have any effect of this situation?
Do you think Alliance could defend right now in the steep valleys of Storm Pike, if they wanted to? Pulling meme to cave for an easy kill while defended by tunnel guards.
If yes, why don’t you think they do that?
Map balance or rewards?
And while you stand there AFK for 10min we rally some forces to clear you out on the hill of shame. Good times. 
I was fighting a Russian premade the other day. They was obviously on Voice Comms. They moved as one, the defended SH GY for 30min, they tagged SF GY but we ALL defended it, 40 Horde defended SF GY, it was beautiful. Then we defended IB GY also. We did this for 30min. No one capped any GY or Bunker/tower.
After 30min the Russians vanished. They just waited in the tunnel and many had /afk out of the BG.
Why do you think that is? They wasn’t losing and they wasn’t wining. We wasn’t winning either. It was stalled.
Why do you think they left and let us win like that?
Map balance or the rewards?
At SP? I don’t know if you noticed but that’s one of the worst GYs to defend on the entire map. Horde can get above people in the valley and once Alliance is pushed back to the flag they can get above the spawn and above the people in front of the flag. They can also flank from under the bridge. If anything Alliance could defend on the bridge but again that’s after Horde have access to 2 wing commanders and a summon boss and a close spawn at SP. And no pulling Lok to the cave isn’t easy to do since you can’t actually get up to the cave if you don’t control the road from SH to SP. It’s not like on the Horde side where Ivus almost walks into the spawn cave by himelf and it’s impossible to prevent the Horde from getting to their cave since they spawn there.
I meant SF GY.
Wait no.
yes I mean SP gy.
Did you just claim that SP is the worst GY to defend on the whole map? Wtf? The GY where 10 Alliance hold the GY for 30min against 30 Horde until meme comes if they don’t pull it to cave?
Dude, SP GY is BY FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR the best choke in game. How is it even possible to not see that? In every AV Horde is getting choked there by a handful of Alliance and when the lose it they spawn in cave super close.
The fact you were able to get control of most of the middle against a premade certainly speaks volumes about how imballanced the map is to Horde’s favour.
Allience defending doesn’t produce the same benefit as horde defending.
having everyone defend shgy you have no chokepoint and cannot summon ivus since you need to push into the field of strife to summon.you cannot defend ibgy due to horde having double the respawns.you cannot defend spgy or base since horde can easily summon Lok to break the turtle which you cannot prevent at that point.
Horde defending ibgy they have a choke point and an escape above Gy and if it ever gets soft capped they still spawn very close. Horde defending shgy they have best choke in game Allience have to travel 1 minute to reinforce easy to defend can still summon Lok. Fw Gy defending will produce benefit as some Rez in cave they are also no choke points so some horde can trickle through this option barely happens as it’s hard for allience to get to this stage.