So why don't we have matchmaking for mythic yet?

[Athíyk-draenor]

I think the reason for that is quite simple: Challenging content and queue system just does not work (in wow.) Whatever gets added to a queue system has to be adjusted, because once you can queue for it, people expect to finish it within a reasonable timeframe.

This got evident quite fast when we stepped over from Heroic dungeons of WOTLK (which was pretty simple, nowhere near as challenging as dungeons from other expansions) to Heroic dungeons of Cataclysm. Blizzard once again tried to add some semblance of difficulty to heroic back then, requiring not only interrupts, but in some occasions hard CC like stuns otherwise the group wiped pretty fast on trashpacks. There was a massive outcry on this, and I even recall hearing that Blizzard later stated in an interview that they had to massively reduce the difficulty in order to bump up the agonizingly low dungeon success percentages.

You can even see it today as well in leveling content: Generally people avoid Cataclysm dungeons like the plague, because even while it was severely nerfed there are still some mechanics that players must respect (more often then not the tanks.) Even to this day barely anyone goes to kill Erunak Stonespeaker in Throne of the Tides, because the boss required both the healer and the tank to be on their toes, since the boss can literally twoshot a tank without active mitigation within the timespan of two seconds. Pandaria dungeons, which was in the same leveling range, was the leveling choice because it was much easier.

Mythic dungeons were originally created as non-queue-able content for premade groups, and it is where Blizzard wants to keep it. If cataclysm is anything to go by there is a set amount of success rate something must match in order for it to stay untouched, which is why people are weary of letting anything get on the queue system, since it means that it will have to be tuned in order for everyone to do it.

You may say that yes, the success change will be low, and that is fine, but you also have to keep in mind that queueable content means it is for everyone: to Johnny who’s level 12 and only plays retribution because the abilities are flashy, to John who may only be able to play with one hand due to health issues, to Jimmy who struggles through 16 hour shifts a day and only has a good hour a day to play. For them queueable content means that it isn’t difficult, and setting an ilvl gap will not solve the situation because Blizzard is inflating ilvls so people wouldn’t be left behind.

Making mythic dungeons queueable also means that you need to put in an incentive to attract the better part of the playerbase to participate, which again is something that increases the chance of a successful run by a large margin, and it is why there are somewhat tangible rewards from LFR (runes, which better players in their prefered end game can use to give a bit of an extra boost to themselves.)

I know that you will say that this is just an opinion of mine, but a number of changes Blizzard has made in the past:
nerfing Cataclysm dungeons due to low success rate.
Dropping the idea of having to do silver proving grounds back in WoD as a requirement to enter mythic dungeons and bronze for heroic.
Making timewalking dungeons ridiculously easy and enforcing this with adjustments.
Just points towards the conclusion that Blizzard just cannot make anything that is both challenging and queueable. If you set damage requirements then people will start excluding specific classes, they will get frustrated with low performers, and said low performer’s mood will be ruined if he gets kicked for said low performance.

So if you take these into consideration then yes: Having mythic or even mythic+ queueable will directly affect the game for those who do not participate in it.

Also just a food of thought: How would you solve the system itself? The base gear rewards you get from callings/world quests is anywhere between 184 and 194, plus you have the covenant armor there which you can, with grind mind you, upgrade to 197 ilvl. The first mythic key level that rewards gear equal to that is a +6, so how will you give people incentive to do lower content than that? If you set an ilvl requirement to it then they will just queue for the first one closer to it and available to them. If you do set an ilvl requirement what will it be? Since a +6 gives 197 ilvl you cannot really set anything too high. 184 perhaps? that is already what normal mythic dungeon gear gives. Is it realistic then to expect people to jump from normal mythic straight into a +6?

Will you restrict with a progression system? Will people queue for it? Likely not, since they do not get gear rewards from it, so they will try to either look for loopholes to circumvent it, or just outright skip it and use the LFD instead.

Not to mention that at this point Blizzard cannot touch normal mythics, because the entire key system uses that as a base difficulty for its multipliers.

I am not for gatekeeping, but I just realistically cannot see a queueable version of mythic/mythic+ which can keep its current difficulty curve. It will have to be nerfed in order to accomodate to the fact that anyone can queue for them (since the only requirement you can realistically set is itemlevel.) Beside that all the effort they need to invest in creating an algorithm that can value in parameters other than ilvl and spec just sounds too much work for a company who already feels to be behind schedule with content creation. It is much easier for them to leave it in the LFD where people can make and adjust their groups to their needs and desires.

This is why people are so defensive about adding anything to a queue system. Mythic was created in order to give premades some difficulty (the fact that this is only relevant for the first few weeks is another matter entirely) while leaving normal and heroic queueable (which kind of shows on their difficulty levels.)

[Malkaviann-deathwing]

@Daddydwarf-runetotem

it Splits the population between functions they use

Would be correct if everybody used said 1 function. They don’t. It cannot divide something that was never unified.

@Daddydwarf-runetotem

What we do. on a majority run to 1 Faction

Incorrect, look at realm populations.

@Daddydwarf-runetotem

when u devide Players by Queue v Premade? What will we do? the majority will take one and reject the other.

My statement stands. Don’t use it if you don’t want to.

@Daddydwarf-runetotem

Ur asking for us all to accept a SLOWER loop into getting groups.

I never asked all of “you” for anything but an answer to a question.
After that you are repeating yourself.

@Daddydwarf-runetotem

Wreck

That would be the rest of your low effort post. Have a nice day.

@Athíyk-draenor

Whatever gets added to a queue system has to be adjusted

It really doesn’t tho, failure is the obvious outcome when you don’t put effort in.

@Athíyk-draenor

reduce the difficulty in order to bump up the agonizingly low dungeon success percentages

A mistake. It’s HC, not normal. They are pandering to people who want to put in less effort for that thing serious people get when they put in more effort. A mistake through and through.

@Athíyk-draenor

Mythic dungeons were originally created as non-queue-able content for premade groups, and it is where Blizzard wants to keep it

I’ll repeat my original question again, im used to it by now. Why?

@Athíyk-draenor

keep in mind that queueable content means it is for everyone

Incorrect, given my example of requierments.

@Athíyk-draenor

you need to put in an incentive to attract the better part of the playerbase to participate

I disagree. Why should we incentivise said part of the player base?

@Athíyk-draenor

points towards the conclusion that Blizzard just cannot make anything that is both challenging and queueable.

They literally can if they add MM for mythic tho. If people (and it’s very important to know whom “people” does and doesn’t represent) don’t like it, don’t should not use it.

@Athíyk-draenor

If you set damage requirements then people will start excluding specific classes

That is already a thing in the current system, something people will not be able to do in the suggested system.

@Athíyk-draenor

said low performer’s mood will be ruined if he gets kicked for said low performance.

As is proper, when performing low.

@Athíyk-draenor

Having mythic or even mythic+ queueable will directly affect the game for those who do not participate in it.

As stated above, fundamentally incorrect, based on misconceptions.

@Athíyk-draenor

you have the covenant armor there which you can, with grind mind you

I’ve never grinded for anima, even tho i admit i skip sanctum upgrades as i see them as anima sinks, which they are. That also applies for honor gear and mythic gear. The game in its current state is grindy.

@Athíyk-draenor

The first mythic key level that rewards gear equal to that is a +6, so how will you give people incentive to do lower content than that?

The incentive is higher gear after that. ilvl rewards should remain consistent with the current system.

@Athíyk-draenor

Will you restrict with a progression system? Will people queue for it? Likely not

An assumption, nothing more. I’ve actually talked with people ingame who would queue for such a system. When discussing things like that it’s always important to remember you don’t know the future and acting as if you do does nothing to help any of the arguments you make based on that.

@Athíyk-draenor

I am not for gatekeeping, but I just realistically cannot see a queueable version of mythic/mythic+ which can keep its current difficulty curve

That is assuming they nerf it based on success %, a horrible idea.

@Athíyk-draenor

It will have to be nerfed in order to accomodate to the fact that anyone can queue for them

Again incorrect on two parts. First is that it will have to be nerfed and second that anyone can queue for them, i already mentioned why. Achievement (hidden or otherwise) requierments do exist and can be implemented.

@Athíyk-draenor

too much work for a company

I cannot get behind the mentallity that blizzard is such a small, poor company that they cannot implement something they already have.

@Athíyk-draenor

Mythic was created in order to give premades some difficulty

They would still have said difficulty, nothing is being taken from them.

@Athíyk-draenor

This is why people are so defensive about adding anything to a queue system.

No, this is why you and anyone who agrees with you are so defensive. So far this is the only good arguments anybody has given (some of the “bad” ones not even worth responding to). And you have very valid points. You can see all of the “requierments” already ingame, some coming in 9.0.5 even.

Thank you for the great reply. It’s refreshing to see someone actually do more than throw half-assed personal opinions around and treat them as facts.

[Athíyk-draenor]

While I would have a hard time imagining that Blizzard wouldn’t have the manpower to do such a thing, the fact how BFA as an expansion went down, and that there are rumors floating about that PvP balancing is being done by only two individuals leaves me pessimistic about how much manpower they can afford to divert to implement a system such as this.

Blizzard is also known to be incredibly stubborn.

The only way I can see the queueing system working with M+ is if they change it, but for that they need to change what the system means to people: Content that you can queue for and finish regardless of your personal performance. I personally doubt that would go down well with the majority.

It can turn out well, but after BFA (the first truly bad expansion from a raider’s perspective I slogged through) I wouldn’t trust them to be able to manage to make the system function as it should.

But as I said, I am pessimistic on the matter, because in the end Blizzard will always just find it easier to point in direction of the LFD and call it a day (like how they kept telling us how awesome Azerite armor will be.) If the majority is content with the system I do not think that they will make changes (regardless that does not mean that alternatives cannot be proposed. Sadly I doubt that Blizzard frequents these forums that often. Your suggestion may get a response on the US forums.)

[Psjohly-argent-dawn (Psjohly)]

@Malkaviann-deathwing

Thank you for the great reply. It’s refreshing to see someone actually do more than throw half-assed personal opinions around and treat them as facts.

Mind you that where you say “incorrect” that is also an oppinion. Not a fact at all.

[Daddydwarf-runetotem]

@Malkaviann-deathwing

Would be correct if everybody used said 1 function. They don’t. It cannot divide something that was never unified.

U beleivew adding M+ is going to involve more players? ofcourse it wont lol. people will Ragequit and more throughout it repeatively because M+ Will become such a Wall to players unused to the enviroment.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

Incorrect, look at realm populations.

U mean the fact that the ENTIRITY of draenor is Horde? and the ENTIRITY of silvermoon is Alliance?

or the fact theres about 20% More horde then Alliance so far overall and Alliance are dying by day? Even ion acknowledge the Fact alliance are dying.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

I never asked all of “you” for anything but an answer to a question.
After that you are repeating yourself.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

That would be the rest of your low effort post. Have a nice day.

Isnt a Low effort post… its Understanding human behaviour far more then u apprantly

"good " ideas on paper, dont always translate to good things in players hands learn that.

[Daddydwarf-runetotem]

@Malkaviann-deathwing

So far this is the only good arguments anybody has given (some of the “bad” ones not even worth responding to). And you have very valid points.

U cant display a “good argument” against a Terrible idea to begin with.

theres a Reason why the Vast majority Band together Against such a Idea… and Its Amazingly those who do M+ alot that stand against it. the issue is u dont care about the Mode… u just want it be Easier to access thats all u care about ur Incorrect idea onwhat a “PuG” is.

Heres a hint “pugging” has existed Longer then the LFG Tool. and has ALWAYSB een on a Leader invitation.

What u want is Simply blizzard to appease ur Laziness.

[Barry-the-shatar]

@Malkaviann-deathwing

I agree its better. Going around in a circle here: The point of the thread was to discuss why people are against it when they don’t have to take part in it while at the same time other people want to. The reason i wanted citation is blizzard changes things all the time. I see no reason why this isn’t something they can change.

the reason is that it goes back to an older time in the game, back in classic or vanilla or whatever you want to call it people had to look in trade chat and find groups and make their way out to the dungeons, its something that people missed and it was a thing that blizz put in so that there was some semblance of it still existing, the content is the more difficult part of the dungeon content, its been designed and implemented for it to not be queuable, so its more a reason of why should they make it ququable, not why should they keep it unqueuable,

my guess is that they have not seen a compelling enough reason to make it queuable so they have decided not to

[Daddydwarf-runetotem]

@Barry-the-shatar

the reason is that it goes back to an older time in the game, back in classic or vanilla or whatever you want to call it people had to look in trade chat and find groups and make their way out to the dungeons, its something that people missed and it was a thing that blizz put in so that there was some semblance of it still existing, the content is the more difficult part of the dungeon content, its been designed and implemented for it to not be queuable, so its more a reason of why should they make it ququable, not why should they keep it unqueuable,

Its not i dont care about old WoW XD i still platy retail through all its changes.

THe Issue is. 98% of the playerbase Couldnt do a +5. thats the issue its AKNOWLEDGING the vast quantities of player COULD NOT do the content ur asking for.

U want to quite litterally Delete the pug scene. because Pug Failure rates will skyrocket in that enviroment ur proposing.

Imagine a +15 Spires of Ascension, with 1 Warlock and 2 boomies… remember how much interupting is important throughout trash packs… now examine how likely you are to time it? do u have any idea how braindead M+ Would have to become to facilitate such a idea?

Please Remember cataclysm Dungeons…

[Barry-the-shatar]

@Daddydwarf-runetotem

Its not i dont care about old WoW XD i still platy retail through all its changes.

THe Issue is. 98% of the playerbase Couldnt do a +5. thats the issue its AKNOWLEDGING the vast quantities of player COULD NOT do the content ur asking for.

U want to quite litterally Delete the pug scene. because Pug Failure rates will skyrocket in that enviroment ur proposing.

there are plenty of pugs that find ways to clear plenty of content, the main problem with pugs failing is that the vast majority of players are terrible and wouldnt be able to complete mythics unless they are lucky and get a free carry from someone,

why should the system be queuable meaning that people who are there to pick something up basically have to carry a bunch of idiots that cant tell left from right?

why would it be fair to force players that have the brain power to understand simple things like how to dodge boss mechanics to have to put up with sometimes managing to fail mechanics and bosses and waste their time just because some casual player wants to get a free carry on something they dont need.

most of the people that cry about mythics not being queuable are the players that are not going to use the gear anyway other than doing world quests because they never take part in any content, so them getting into mythics and ruining the experience of the other players is a waste of time to begin with

[Daddydwarf-runetotem]

@Barry-the-shatar

there are plenty of pugs that find ways to clear plenty of content, the main problem with pugs failing is that the vast majority of players are terrible and wouldnt be able to complete mythics unless they are lucky and get a free carry from someone,

Yes the people who do M+ thats like 2% of the playerbase dude. the other 98% couldnt./

[Korsbaek-draenor]

@Malkaviann-deathwing

So i shouldn’t ask them why they think something? I’d call that bad advice, honestly. This is a discussion and im discussing.

no it is you asking people to say their opinion and then you saying but im not agreeing so why not, not the same words but the same meaning.
simply put you have formed an opinion and no matter what others say you wont change that opinion.
try look at things from the other side of the argument as long as you wont do that you cant have an argument sorry but that is how it is.

the reason i dont want it is that by making a matchmaking system(no matter how little it will be used(at it is going to be very low in my opinion)), people will complain and complain a lot, at some point blizzard is going to listen to some degree, then as most of the complaints would be about not being able to time the m+ or they are to hard, they er overtuned, you know the problems that would only happen with a matchmaking system instaed of making the group yourself.
so now they have to nerf or change how the make dungeons to also take the matchmaking system into account, meaning they have to take into account that every requirement need to fit around the lowest common domination so that will mean 1min interupt timer and what have we not.

so all it would bring is that m+ from level x-y will be for the matchmaking and the new LFR then we have where all the rest begins(the organized people) then begins from y and up from there and as the organized people would need to have better rewards then the matchmaking(just like lfr compared to normal, hc or mythic) all it will do compared to now is push the mark where matchmaking starts and orginased starts, now it starts with normal in raids and mythic in dungeons nothing else, failing to understand that is a problem.
so you do lets say a +15(the y from before) then that would be the same as doing a heroic now with a few changes like a timer and the m+ basic mechanics(maybe some of the affixes or even all of them to) and you would then get loot compared to the HC dungeon from before this change.

so if you can agree to get loot at the level of hc dungeons in the current system with your change then sure go for it, if not then all you want is loot nothing else and then if you want loot put in the effort to get it like the rest of us and stop being a spoiled brat.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

Yeah beacause i think its a good idea and unless i see it being as bad as you claim it will be neither of us can know that. But one of us is against it ever seeing the light of day.

to see something before it is tried can be done with experiance,

@Malkaviann-deathwing

Incorrect. Thats your point of view. My point of view is the next logical step is to make a group of the people who did things right and get them to use voice chat and maybe form a community. You would personally deny that opportunity to me and said (imaginary, yes) people because you project your opinion on OUR actions?

so what you want is not peoples opinion but only to say that yours is the right one and everyone else just have to agree.

@Livía-aerie-peak

Improve the coreography so that it’s more intuitive for players to figure out what they got to do without having to watch videos of someone else doing the fight.

any fight in the game today can be done without watching anyones tactic just using the dungeon jurnal and look under abilitys and you have a pretty good ide of how to set up a tactic for the fight(might not be the best or optimal but it should work for the fight and it can be tweeked later)

@Livía-aerie-peak

Having done random dungeons in cata i can personally vouch that the intimal dungeons went quite well, they were difficult but not too long. But then we got Zul’Gurub/Aman which took hours and safe to say, often ended prematurely because players were just too exhausted to finish.

what the hell are you talking about cata dungeons at the start where complained about massively, not just a little, it was bad the amount of complaints about the dungeons was insane ofc here im assuming hc(the highest level of dungeons at the time)

@Malkaviann-deathwing

Yes i did experiance a raid. An easier raid.

no you where shown a watered down version of what the content of a raid looks like not how a raid works, you dont have the communication going on as when raiding or the 300+ wipes to clear a raid with a group just to learn the fights/phases during progression, when joining most random groups a few weeks after the raid have been out then you are joinging people that have spend the hours and hours of wiping on the fights, they are maybe there to help a friend, gear an alt or the like but having people that have done the progression on the fights. now going to LFR the stuff there is so watered down you dont need to communication to do it as it is so easy in comparison to the lowest raid tier.

@Livía-aerie-peak

which in this case is RIO. This could very well have been automated by making players need to fulfil a role test before they can start queuing,

so you will have people being able to pick what classes they want to have join the group from the new LFD(m+) version or did i misunderstand that, so they can pick the classes they want and they need to have done said dungon in time at a lower key first and you really cant see how that is going to be so bad for any none meta classes?

@Malkaviann-deathwing

Are you one of those people that think blizzard is a small time indie dev that has no “resources”? Legit question.

or he/she/it might be someone thinking that blizzard are thinking how to optimising proffit by not trwoing money after something that would not improve the game.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

I’ve had many NORMAL dungeons where the tank was 200-220 and still failed miserably.

you sure?
a 220 tank can solo a normal dungeon and with some creative thinking some dps or healing classes can do it to, not going to see how they can fail with 3 dps and 1 healer backing them up at that ilvl

@Malkaviann-deathwing

Saves time and makes forming a group faster and easier.

could jsut as easy waste time and make getting a dungeon completed longer.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

Pressing the LFG button doesn’t mean easy mode, it actually means hard mode. I never said there shouldn’t be any non-lfg content, even tho i don’t see the benefit from it.

and in my opinion they should remove the LFG and LFR, make it so people can solo que for the LFG and LFR with a set of ai’s walking them trough the raid/dungeon and let the real raids and dungeons be focused on group content and then they should either make bigger servers and no cross realm or make it completely crossrealm all the time, though think the none cross realm would be better, it would improve the server communities is my reasons for it, just make the servers so big that there are always a good deal of people online and combine servers that gets small populations.
now why not do it that way? it will help combat toxisity and would make it so the people that want to do group content(pve) can still do it and any action you take will effect your server reputation so leaving keys and the like will hurt your reputation in the long run so the problem with that would disaprea at some point.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

Timed dungeons are part of mythic, i don’t see the need to separate them but you do you. It’s not outdated if you need to do it right now so that argument is invalid.

mythic is not timed dungeons m+ is timed dungeons.

[Popgligor-magtheridon]

@Malkaviann-deathwing

Or add a MM system. Honestly why does it bother you so much if people want to do things differently?

What we’re trying to tell you is that matchmaking for m+ is going to be a trap for players. A lie. Because you simply cannot do m+ with random players. You need to be selective - not based on rio, but to realize that party composition mattes. It’s not just about me not wanting to use matchmaking - I run dungeons with my guild, so it doesn’t matter.

It is for everyone who would use matchmaking, like you - you are going to have an awful experience. Even if you get matched with good players, random party comps simply do not work. Matchmaking is gonna be used by casual players, Blizz will give them the illusion that they can do m+ with randoms, they are gonna queue, get in, get completely destroyed and come here to complain.

M+ is endgame, and endgame cannot be random. If you cannot take it seriously enough that you realize you need to form parties manually, then you simply aren’t ready for it. And before someone says it + LFR isn’t endgame. It’s there so ultra casual players can get their story quests done.

[Soupie-twilights-hammer]

@Malkaviann-deathwing

hey are literally already offering their keys to 4 random people based on ilvl and maybe stats.

Again my main argument is it does nothing to you personally. You can still do what you do and completly ignore the matchmaking? I fail to see your argument.

I think it is counter-productive since there is another system used to find groups. So you want them to have 2 systems to do the similar things? That is really bad game design.

If we removed the LFG system and only have people queue up then that is a big no. Since people would like to organize their own teams when they are offering their own key.

There will be a very big flaw in this kind of system, different affixes changes the difficulty of the dungeon, it is almost impossible to have a fair balanced system that queues the right ilvl. The easiest is to have the requirement set higher than required. I think most average players won’t be able to queue +10 if this was the case. You can’t really put numbers on a lot of the difficulties that equate to the ilvl.

They could however make a system that only allows you to queue for higher +1 key level for that specific affix combination when you have completed the previous 1 level. But this will be a very tedious process which might frustrate a lot of people. Imagine required to go through +2,+3,+4,+5 very every week of different affix. And you need to succeed and not fail it will be a stressful system.

I really don’t see a win with this kind of system. Rather have a human to decide with the LFG. To design an automated system to check is really difficult.

[Malkaviann-deathwing]

@Daddydwarf-runetotem

U beleivew adding M+ is going to involve more players? ofcourse it wont lol. people will Ragequit and more throughout it repeatively because M+ Will become such a Wall to players unused to the enviroment.

Adding a feature to make getting into it is the exact oposite of a wall. Rest of that statement is based on your beliefs that people will “ragequit”.

@Daddydwarf-runetotem

U mean the fact that the ENTIRITY of draenor is Horde? and the ENTIRITY of silvermoon is Alliance?

Yes, people choose what realm to join, there are balanced ones and theres non balanced ones. Using only the ones that fit your agenda does nothing for it.

@Daddydwarf-runetotem

Isnt a Low effort post

Oh but it is. English isn’t my first language either, yet i don’t make you struggle to make sense of gibberish. Try using autocorrect or something.

@Daddydwarf-runetotem

U cant display a “good argument” against a Terrible idea to begin with.

I have literally quoted someone who did exactly that.

@Daddydwarf-runetotem

theres a Reason why the Vast majority Band together Against such a Idea… and Its Amazingly those who do M+ alot that stand against it. the issue is u dont care about the Mode

This is what i mean, everyone who disagrees says more or less the same, that theres a reason and then they proceed to project their opinions on how i want to make it easier when i have said multaple times i don’t. Once again the rest of your post is exremely low effort so i’ll skip it.

@Barry-the-shatar

something that people missed and it was a thing that blizz put in so that there was some semblance of it still existing

Do you think that more people started doing dongeons (and finishing them) after the introduction of the LFG tool?

@Barry-the-shatar

its been designed and implemented for it to not be queuable

Which part of mytic is specifically designed to not be compatable with a queue system?

@Daddydwarf-runetotem

THe Issue is. 98% of the playerbase Couldnt do a +5

I know, by now, theres no point in even asking but can you give a source to this very, very specific and unlikely number?

@Daddydwarf-runetotem

U want to quite litterally Delete the pug scene

WIth a system that does nothing to them? By helping players ease into mythic?

@Barry-the-shatar

most of the people that cry about mythics not being queuable

Im sorry you feel like i was crying while trying to have a discussion. I assure you it was quite the oposite with some of the responses here

@Barry-the-shatar

not going to use the gear anyway

Thats just a silly thing to say. One of the main reason some people (if not all, even if partially) is to get gear. It’s literally part of the process and what they do after isn’t up for you to judge.

@Barry-the-shatar

ruining the experience of the other players

Yet another baseless claim with no exaples or explanation. Have a nice day.

@Korsbaek-draenor

no it is you asking people to say their opinion and then you saying but im not agreeing

Also known as… a discussion.

@Korsbaek-draenor

and no matter what others say you wont change that opinion

It does matter what they say. IF you come in and say its a bad idea, that should make me change my mind? Im sure you an see the issue what that and if you can’t, thats fine.

@Korsbaek-draenor

people will complain and complain a lot

Complaining is a good thing tho. Thats the reason we have wow classic. That’s the reason things get changed. If you don’t care about something you don’t complain. If you do, you complain.

@Korsbaek-draenor

blizzard is going to listen to some degree

I’d say thats a good thing. A very good thing.

From what i gather from the rest of your post (with great effort on my part…) you don’t want that system because people will find flaws in it and ask that they are fixed? Uhh…

@Korsbaek-draenor

to see something before it is tried can be done with experiance

Like… using the force?

@Korsbaek-draenor

so what you want is not peoples opinion but only to say that yours is the right one and everyone else just have to agree.

If thats what you gathered im not going to explain it since i don’t see the point.

@Korsbaek-draenor

any fight in the game today can be done without watching anyones tactic

And you will die, those people will know you haven’t spent all your time and dedication and not invite you again.

@Korsbaek-draenor

just using the dungeon jurnal and look under abilitys

So basically reading about tactics.

@Korsbaek-draenor

no you where shown a watered down version of what the content of a raid

You can insult it all you want, it was a raid.

@Korsbaek-draenor

you dont have the communication going on

We didn’t need it. Things are easy to understand.

@Korsbaek-draenor

the 300+ wipes to clear a raid with a group

That sounds like a niche thing. I don’t see any way wiping 300+ times and wasting that many hours of my life as a good thing in any way. To each their own.

@Korsbaek-draenor

you dont need to communication to do it as it is so easy in comparison to the lowest raid tier.

I agree. It’s also a good way to get legendaries.

@Korsbaek-draenor

so you will have people being able to pick what classes they want to have join the group

No, that is not what they said. Read it all over again, this time turn your attention span up a bit.

@Korsbaek-draenor

trwoing money after something that would not improve the game.

Baseless. Oh wait i forgot, you can see into the future. Nevermind.

[/quote]
a 220 tank can solo a normal dungeon and with some creative thinking some dps or healing classes can do it to, not going to see how they can fail with 3 dps and 1 healer backing them up at that ilvl
[/quote]
The only people i’ve seen loose their minds, shouting in caps (yes /shout) in pugs has, with one or two exeptions, always been 200+ ilvl “meta” classes. If they are used to the tight knit mythic version where everyone knows what to do and is on voice chat, stick to that. If you go in a difficulty know for its new player population don’t flame the living hell out of them because that tank taught the same as you and tried to solo the dungeon. I still do them now and again on my tank to help out levelers or fresh 60’s (its not really helping since im like 185 but i can tank any of them and at the very least tanks are in shortage so i shorten their queue time). If you wanna talk toxicity thats a perfect example of it. You want to blame a LFG system that brings people together but ignore the facts people who do that in normal and HC are actually pushing away new players. I can only imagine what that guy would be in voice chat. Sounds greaat… yeah…

@Korsbaek-draenor

and in my opinion they should remove the LFG and LFR

Then proceed to not give a reason. Mhm.

@Korsbaek-draenor

make it so people can solo que for the LFG and LFR with a set of ai’s walking them trough the raid/dungeon

So basically you want automation?

@Korsbaek-draenor

let the real raids and dungeons be focused on group content

They… man they already are? What are on on about?

@Korsbaek-draenor

now why not do it that way?

We already have “a good deal of people online” and cross realm. I don’t see where you’re trying to go with that.

@Korsbaek-draenor

leaving keys and the like will hurt your reputation

Again. We have that.

@Popgligor-magtheridon

What we’re trying to tell you

You*

@Popgligor-magtheridon

m+ is going to be a trap for players. A lie

I understand you would dislike it but calling it “a lie” is being silly.

@Popgligor-magtheridon

Because you simply cannot do m+ with random players

One more person who can see into the future. Must be a commom thing among mythic players.

@Popgligor-magtheridon

I run dungeons with my guild, so it doesn’t matter.

By your need to tell me a bunch of self projections about why it should not exist, id say it obviously does.

@Popgligor-magtheridon

you are going to have an awful experience

Curst that ability that sees into the future

@Popgligor-magtheridon

get completely destroyed and come here to complain.

Ah now i see. If MM does become a thing and people see obvious flaws with a system they will complain about them. And you want your niche to remain untouched. That explains alot, if not all, the gating you and most of the others have been doing.

@Popgligor-magtheridon

endgame cannot be random

Affixes?

@Popgligor-magtheridon

If you cannot take it seriously enough that you realize you need to form parties manually, then you simply aren’t ready for it.

You, despite claiming otherwise, don’t know that to be a fact. You would if we had such a system tho.

@Soupie-twilights-hammer

I think it is counter-productive since there is another system used to find groups. So you want them to have 2 systems to do the similar things? That is really bad game design.

They would be two different systems doing a different thing. The current system allows you to choose and cherry pick who comes along and who doesn’t. The other one would descide that automatically based on already mentioned factors and take away the prejudice people have, making the process more inclusive.

@Soupie-twilights-hammer

If we removed the LFG system and only have people queue up then that is a big no.

Good thing i never suggested that then.

I see that you’ve missed alot of the points i made and went off with the assumption that i suggested a ilvl only requierment so i’ll let you read (if you want to ofcourse) them. And if you don’t, have a nice day.

[Korsbaek-draenor]

@Malkaviann-deathwing

Also known as… a discussion.

no a discussion is when you respect the others opinion and argue from your point of view, you are not doing that, so nope not a discussion.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

Complaining is a good thing tho

yes and no, sometimes it is good sometimes it is bad, it depends on the situation.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

From what i gather from the rest of your post (with great effort on my part…) you don’t want that system because people will find flaws in it and ask that they are fixed?

no i dont want the system as I see no reason for it, as all it would do is set a new place where pugging starts nothing more, so you do the +15(set as the max for the matchmaking system here) then you would have to reward them some items but as it is not organized content so it has to be lower then normal(the start of organized content in raids), then as m+ is also a port of endgame content you will have to have 15 or more levels above that for the organized content that will give loot at the same level as normal and higher(depending on key level).

@Malkaviann-deathwing

Like… using the force?

you got experican using the force? dam what acid trip are you on?(this is a joke by the way as i know what you mean), no it is called predictions it is used very often in business and they are dam good at it to(though they do get surprised sometimes), scientist use it all the time to, it is litterly what our understanding of physics is build around so it is not something mystical, unless you are going to say that a scientist is someone doing something mystical on a daily basis.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

And you will die, those people will know you haven’t spent all your time and dedication and not invite you again.

take it in the context it is writen then yes you would die and then tweek the tactic and then get the kill at some point, as that statement i made is based on the assumption it is agreed beforehand in the group to not look up tactics from other sides, like the race to world first people do in raids, you do know they dont have a strat someone made to go by(they make them before hand in the beta testing but that is unimportant as they are still making them), they make them themselve, others can do the same if they want to(and have the groups ok that is how we are doing it, I have been in guilds where looking up tactics where not something we did, we made every strategi ourselves).

@Malkaviann-deathwing

So basically reading about tactics.

no reading abilities are not tactics, it just shows what abilities a boss has nothing more.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

You can insult it all you want, it was a raid.

that is a matter of opinion, im off the opinion LFR is not a raid as it is missing what makes a raid a raid.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

We didn’t need it. Things are easy to understand.

you need it in a raid, else you are not killing stuff.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

That sounds like a niche thing. I don’t see any way wiping 300+ times and wasting that many hours of my life as a good thing in any way. To each their own.

just means raiding is not for you, that is the amount if not a hell lot more to get bosses down in raids(assuming it is at the highest level of content your group can do).
for instance currently i have 100+ tries on sire(got him down a few times) but that was what it took us to get him down on heroic or there about, some other bosses take 40+ tries so a complet raid taking 300+ tries on different bosses is nothing new for a raid it is just how it is during a raid, that does not work in LFR and is also one of the reasons that is not a raid.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

No, that is not what they said. Read it all over again, this time turn your attention span up a bit.

I know what they said, but it would be what is needed to have any semblance of a chance doing mythics in a matchmaking system.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

The only people i’ve seen loose their minds, shouting in caps (yes /shout) in pugs has, with one or two exeptions, always been 200+ ilvl “meta” classes. If they are used to the tight knit mythic version where everyone knows what to do and is on voice chat, stick to that. If you go in a difficulty know for its new player population don’t flame the living hell out of them because that tank taught the same as you and tried to solo the dungeon. I still do them now and again on my tank to help out levelers or fresh 60’s

the only people i have seen loos there minds shouting are entiteld people they are in the game to.
I have one rule when im doing dungeons on any difficulty, the tank decided where to go and what mobs to pull(unless it is a group of friends and/or guildies then messing around is allowed) and i also do some random dungeons here and there on my shaman with 215+ ilvl so not really saying much, just because some people are pricks dont mean all are.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

You want to blame a LFG system that brings people together but ignore the facts people who do that in normal and HC are actually pushing away new players.

the LFG system did increase the toxicity and as I have been here long enough that i also was here before the LFD system was implemented(dam going to every dungeon in nortran when it first came out to unlock the dungeons again after having done them most of the expansion was anoing as hell), so when im saying that LFD did increase the toxisity then it is compared to the times before the LFD was implomented(i know it means that i was playing doing wrath a good deal of years ago), in voice many people are a lot nicer when they dont know the people they talk to(knowing people makes it so you can get a lot rougher as you know to some degree the limits people have) and if they are not then they normally also get told very fast and with not so pretty words what to do about it and that normally calms them down very fast, so yes people are a lot nicer on voice chats.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

Then proceed to not give a reason. Mhm.

you dont agree with my reasoning, that is a difference, my reasoning being it would improve the server community and i also talk about removing the cross realm thing, but making sure the realms are populated enough to support that and connect them when it is not.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

So basically you want automation?

no i want orginized content to get back to what it was ages back and as blizzard has stories bound to the dungeons having anyone not wanting to do orginized content limitet is bad, so having them able to do the content with ai’s(would also limit the level of the reward) so they can see the story if that is what they want.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

They… man they already are? What are on on about?

I know they are but that is not what you are asking, remember context is key.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

Again. We have that.

no we dont.

and you did notice i also said that I’m all for having m+ as Matchmaking if the rewards refeclt that it is done trough matchmaking, so taking the rewrad from current heroic dungeons place them at the end of +15 and having current +15 rewards at +30 or something like that sure im all game as that changes nothing in my world all it does is the key now has a higher number with the same difficulty and the number is not insane(like 6 didget numbers).
but that is not what you are asking im guessing here.
you want the reward to stay the same, but that would not work, 1 the loot philosophy(orginized content always gives better rewards, that is decided from blizzards side and they have said so themselves), 2 the content is to hard to do(higher keys) if you dont know what you are going into and have done something in that ballpark before.

[Malkaviann-deathwing]

@Korsbaek-draenor

no a discussion is when you respect the others opinion and argue from your point of view, you are not doing that, so nope not a discussion.

No example given, as expected from a low effort reply.

@Korsbaek-draenor

yes and no, sometimes it is good sometimes it is bad, it depends on the situation.

What was the point of replying to that?

@Korsbaek-draenor

no i dont want the system as I see no reason for it

And thats fine, but when given a reason you dismiss it with a wave of the hand. You’ve given your… opinion and i disagreed with it. If someone disagreeing with you feels disrespectful, that too, is fine.

@Korsbaek-draenor

as all it would do is set a new place where pugging starts nothing more

If thats all you gathered from my suggestion then maybe you should go back and read it again. I don’t know what else to tell you.

@Korsbaek-draenor

then you would have to reward them some items

As the game often time does

@Korsbaek-draenor

but as it is not organized content so it has to be lower then normal

Whoooa. Which part of it is not ogranized? You would punish people doing the same content that organized groups do by giving them less? When they are, in effect, doing it in a harder way? Sorry, again can’t make sense of the rest of your post. You really should take your time writing these things.

@Korsbaek-draenor

no it is called predictions it is used very often in business and they are dam good at it to(though they do get surprised sometimes), scientist use it all the time to

There is a difference between predicting something and knowing it. Im just going to stop there because you sound like you have no idea what you’re talking about other than quotes from various… sources (lets call them).

@Korsbaek-draenor

you need it in a raid, else you are not killing stuff.

Completely detracting and missing the point. I never brought up raids. I have no interest in them.

@Korsbaek-draenor

no reading abilities are not tactics, it just shows what abilities a boss has nothing more.

It also mentions ways to deal with situations.

Honestly, im sorry but i don’t have the mental fortitute to sift through that mess of words you slapped here and wrangle them into anything resembling a sentence that has a clear point, rather than you telling me something isn’t true because “no” then proceed to tell me about systems that have nothing to do with my suggestion. Ones you use to “predict” something that you only have predispositions and misconceptions about. But im sure you’ve had some good points, hidden somewhere deep. Have a nice day mate.

[Daddydwarf-runetotem]

i aint gonna bother reposting against ur jibberish other then 2 statements.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

Yes, people choose what realm to join, there are balanced ones and theres non balanced ones. Using only the ones that fit your agenda does nothing for it.

Imagine caring about Server pops… its about cross realm pops. The Horde are vastly more populated then the alliance in competitive modes of the game.

no one cares if ur servers balance.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

Which part of mytic is specifically designed to not be compatable with a queue system?

the part where Composition is a Requirement in M+ u cant do M+ With a Randomized set of classes im afraid, t hats just factual

M+ Requires different things based on Dungeon and Affixs.

bnest example would litterally be pre 8.4 the Impact rogue had on runs it was Mandatory to carry them.

you have to look at CRs, BLs, Interupts per Fight.

For example

Holy Paladin + a blood DK in a high key would be Hell. because Holy paladins have Lower healing outputs because they are a Higher Damage Dealing Specc with lower healing outpuit and blood DKs currently Spike in damage ALOT which would prove alot.

U cant just run M+ With any composition. u have to build ur group to work together otherwise u simply wont managew the key… the Queue system cant Fill that Out. it cannot assign u based on utility.

they would have to butcher the difficulty of the content to make high keys even attemptable through a queuing system and thats why we are all against it.

theres a Reason why there are Mechanics EXCLUSIVELY in Mythic and Higher. because blizzard are aware these mechanics DONT WORK within Randomized groups via the queue filtering.

And before u argue yes there are

Normal and Heroic, have Several mechanics in every Dungeon Disabled, its to ensure it works properly for the Queue filter to deal with.

what u want? them to also leave those mechanics Disabled for Queued Mythic+???.

Please look into catacylsm Dungeon reactions, if u want to know why these things exist, in Cata the Casual Population were in uproar bnecause “cata dungeons were too difficult”. people in Queued content, expect that content to be very easy and get very mad when it isnt.

[Malkaviann-deathwing]

@Daddydwarf-runetotem

i aint gonna bother reposting against ur jibberish other then 2 statements.

Nice.

@Daddydwarf-runetotem

Imagine caring about Server pops… its about cross realm pops

Tell that to the person who brought populations up.

@Daddydwarf-runetotem

Composition is a Requirement in M+ u cant do M+ With a Randomized set of classes

1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps. Thats the only part that cannot be randomized.
Rest of your post is you again projecting your personal ideas acting as if i said it.

@Daddydwarf-runetotem

U cant just run M+ With any composition. u have to build ur group to work together otherwise u simply wont managew the key

So nobody has ever done M+ by inviting the first person who applied as long as they had enough ilvl and didn’t care about any of that?

[Daddydwarf-runetotem]

@Malkaviann-deathwing

Tell that to the person who brought populations up.

I was talkig about horde v alliance Population not server Population

@Malkaviann-deathwing

1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps. Thats the only part that cannot be randomized.
Rest of your post is you again projecting your personal ideas acting as if i said it.

no. i simply stated a Reason

Blood DK, Warlock, Shadow Priest, Boomkin, Holy Paladin

Would not be able to do a +12 Spires fortified week, that combo litterally couldnt do the content unless vastly overgearing the content… u quite litterally will not be able to interupt everything that has to be interupted… theres also a Lack of Survivability tools to physically survive taking the 1 shouts.

its Not Projecting Personal Ideas… im showing u where the queued system would FAIL to ensure theres a Chance of practacility in Managing the content in time.

@Malkaviann-deathwing

So nobody has ever done M+ by inviting the first person who applied as long as they had enough ilvl and didn’t care about any of that?

I dunno… go look at the M+ Ladders???.. go as far as the 50 percentiles (The Mid ranged playerbase) you tell me? because i see None.

Dont get me wrong they dont EXCLUSIVELY bring a mage, but they will take a hunter or Shaman for Bloodlust in some fashion… they may not exclusively take a boomkin, but they’ll take a DK or a Warlock for a CR In tyrannical Weeks.

so no. People dont exclusively Invite Only specific Classes… bujt they do take Classes for Specific Utility.

M+ isnt DESIGNED to do with random Set ups… its DESIGNED to be PREMADE lol… why cant u understand that?.. the contents that ISNT Queuable. is DESIGNED by composition.

the Same with Rated Arena, the same with Raiding… the same with EVERY piece ofcontent which is made for PREMADE ONLY FUNCTIONALITY.

maybe M+2 - M+6 could be Queuable… this is where Affixs are mostly disabled… i cant imagine the success rate would be worth a Dime but it Could likely be done with some luck in the matchmaking enviroment.

but yeah M+10 onwards… with Pride and More… Yeah No. u couldnt time the content with a Random Composition

Examples would be

yeah lack of interupts in Spires
Full Caster team v Explosive.
AoE Based DPS on tyrannical.
No bloodlust on Tyrannical.
Low ST on Pride.
Tank lacking Kiting Ability big part of the meta atm

Not having Routes installed… Goodluck doing Pride with no Route.

Body pulling, this will end ur entire Run

M+ Prideful is built on reaching certain %s at very Specific Moments… u dont do that. u’ll end ur own run… Thats why Dratnos and more now release Routes For tanks to follow… to give people the ability to know where to go.

its Not New playuer Intitituve. its Not build for Randomized Groups… its Not built to be done without experience. Its Timed content. Its built to be a Raid Encounter.

your talking as if u;'ve never actyually done this content?.. like have u looked into what M+ is at all?

READ THE FORUMS… read all the People screeching they CANT GET INTO GROUPS BECAUSE OF THEIR CLASS.

Like Legit. Please actually look into the concept before asking for things like this… is very OBVIOUSLY composition based if Players are getting BENCHED in the content because of class choice.

Yes i do geniunely beleive theres quite a Few things that would have to be removed to make this Work. Either this… or Utility / Interupt CDs and more be the same throughout every class.

Example:

Fury warriors and Survival hunters are Beast in Fortified Weeks, but Low in Tyrannical Weeks.

Elemental Shaman is Greatr in tyrannical Weeks but low in Fortified Weeks.

Affliction Warlock dont work in lower Keys.

Arcane Mage will suffer in Fortified Keys.

Fire mage are great in organised Content.

Ramp up times, Interupts, Mobility, Stealth, Blood lust, Combat Rezzing, AoE v ST DPS, Melee and Ranged, Front loaded Damage and more are all factors into which need to be addressed.

high HoA will need a Venthyr too… ur Route will be botched without a Venthyr in the group.

Necrotic without a Mobile Tank… or enough CC to reset the Stacking effect.

So yeah…

the Group couldnt be any 5 classes with any Talent set up… its not feasible to complete under those enviroments.

[Barry-the-shatar]

but there is also a very strong argument that not all content should be accessable to everyone, look at classic, a time that is remembered very fondly by a lot of people, only like 2% of the playerbase maybe even less even saw the inside of naxx at the time, and that was always spoken about like it was a good thing.